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The rise of the unspellables/unpronounceables

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4 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

You say that casual racism is often unintentional but racism is underlined by prejudice, discrimination or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular racial or ethnic group.  The first post on this thread displayed absolutely none of these qualities.

I don't agree.

More often than not, no offence is intended by casual racism.  It nevertheless gives offence.

And I don't agree that the break dancing comment was necessarily intended to belittle the player.   It was, imho, intended as a joke. And I say that by merely inferring from the story.  I wasn't there so I can't say for sure.

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On 29/07/2020 at 15:34, wiganermike said:

Shetland is an archipelago, not an island. The largest island is called Mainland. I don't know which island in the group the series was set on as I never watched it. Is the death rate as high as Midsomer?

It was mostly filmed on Mainland, but with occasional forays elsewhere.  The population of all the islands is only about 22,000, but geographically, they are far from 'tiny'.  Even leaving Fair Isle aside (technically part of Shetland, but far to the south), it's probably about 100 miles from the southern end of Mainland to the north end of Unst. 

Of course, in many contexts, maps of Great Britain squeeze Shetland into a small, not to the same scale, box in the map corner.  I believe the Scottish parliament has recently outlawed this practice.  My daughter once gave me for Christmas a great teeshirt, which was a map of Shetland within a rectangular border, with the rest of the British Isles in a tiny box in the corner - great stuff!

In the spirit of DavidM's lighthearted Shetland point, I always worried about the risk of going to Jersey.  I presume it's much safer these days, now that 'Bergerac' is no longer filmed there!

My own surname - a good Shetland one! - ends in 'ch' and hence is always pronounced in England as 'ck'  I don't take offence at that; I accept that 'ch' is not a natural sound for an English person to say.  I accept that they mean no offence and probably don't even realise that they have got it wrong.  Mis-spelling is another matter.  I always correct that, not least of all because my name features in my email address and so must be correctly spelt.

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3 minutes ago, Griff said:

More often than not, no offence is intended by casual racism.  It nevertheless gives offence.

So let's focus in on this point.  Do you think that Tino Fa'asuamaleaui would be offended that I struggle to spell his name or pronounce (if I needed to)?  I don't take offence when my (Italian) wife's friends and family regularly mispronounce my name.

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Just now, Dunbar said:

So let's focus in on this point.  Do you think that Tino Fa'asuamaleaui would be offended that I struggle to spell his name or pronounce (if I needed to)?  I don't take offence when my (Italian) wife's friends and family regularly mispronounce my name.

You're not listening, are you ?

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5 minutes ago, Griff said:

I don't agree.

More often than not, no offence is intended by casual racism.  It nevertheless gives offence.

And I don't agree that the break dancing comment was necessarily intended to belittle the player.   It was, imho, intended as a joke. And I say that by merely inferring from the story.  I wasn't there so I can't say for sure.

Who says, Griff?  Your statement doesn't allow for a mix of responses, but as Dunbar and I have just demonstrated, taking offence is not obligatory!

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Is it different if you can’t say names and places in your own country , some things are blooming difficult even when you make an effort .  I think the arguments seeing anything sinister here are ridiculous . 

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1 minute ago, Griff said:

You're not listening, are you ?

No, I am listening.  We have established that the original comment was not meant to cause any offence (as per the definition of racism).  But you replied that offence, while not intended, may still be taken as it is casual racism.

I am asking if you felt the Pacific Island players would be offended if I struggle to spell their names and point it out on a message board?

Because if no offence was meant and non taken then maybe it is all just a bit of nothing about surnames that are difficult to spell.

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17 minutes ago, JohnM said:

We are all racist. 

We are all guilty.

 

Flashbacks to Catholic primary school

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4 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Who says, Griff?  Your statement doesn't allow for a mix of responses, but as Dunbar and I have just demonstrated, taking offence is not obligatory!

That's up to you.

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1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

No, I am listening.  We have established that the original comment was not meant to cause any offence (as per the definition of racism).  But you replied that offence, while not intended, may still be taken as it is casual racism.

I am asking if you felt the Pacific Island players would be offended if I struggle to spell their names and point it out on a message board?

Because if no offence was meant and non taken then maybe it is all just a bit of nothing about surnames that are difficult to spell.

OK - why did you pick out a Pacific Islander and not Danny Brough ?


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1 minute ago, Griff said:

OK - why did you pick out a Pacific Islander and not Danny Brough ?

Because I know how to spell and pronounce one and not the other.

But then I really really struggle with Irish surnames as well.  As well as Latin American one's.  And I would point out that I would need to copy and paste those as well.  And it still wouldn't be racist.

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2 minutes ago, Griff said:

That's up to you.

Not according to you, it isn't; you didn't allow the 'it's up to you' option.  You said "It nevertheless gives offence" as a simple statement of fact.  Dunbar and I have pointed out that we both find ourselves regularly subject to mispronunciation of our names by foreigners - in his case, Italians, in mine English - but we don't take offence.  Ergo, your statement is factually wrong.  I do wish you would demonstrate a bit of humility.

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Just now, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Not according to you, it isn't; you didn't allow the 'it's up to you' option.  You said "It nevertheless gives offence" as a simple statement of fact.  Dunbar and I have pointed out that we both find ourselves regularly subject to mispronunciation of our names by foreigners - in his case, Italians, in mine English - but we don't take offence.  Ergo, your statement is factually wrong.  I do wish you would demonstrate a bit of humility.

I don't agree.

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Let me say why I think this matters.

 At work, I have disciplined people and indeed fired people for racist and sexist language and behaviour.

It is abhorrent.

But we risk losing the hearts and minds of right minded people if we fall into the trap of seeing racism everywhere.  Pointing out that some surnames are more difficult to spell than others - and that surnames from regions where you are non native are more difficult - is not racist.  Especially when there was no malice in the remark whatsoever.

Expose racism and racist people, but don't hang out to dry someone who clearly isn't.

Edited by Dunbar
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Just now, Griff said:

I don't agree.

With what don't you agree?

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Who knew ? I’ve been surrounded by racists all my life , every time I get called to go in the doctors , the dentists , the hospital , everyone who rings up asking for me or knocks delivering something   at the door . I always just say ‘ yeh that’ll do that’s me ‘ , good job I never thought before I’d have been scarred for life

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10 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

With what don't you agree?

Any of it.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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17 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

Not according to you, it isn't; you didn't allow the 'it's up to you' option.  You said "It nevertheless gives offence" as a simple statement of fact.  Dunbar and I have pointed out that we both find ourselves regularly subject to mispronunciation of our names by foreigners - in his case, Italians, in mine English - but we don't take offence.  Ergo, your statement is factually wrong.  I do wish you would demonstrate a bit of humility.

 

16 minutes ago, Griff said:

I don't agree.

 

15 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

With what don't you agree?

 

4 minutes ago, Griff said:

Any of it.

So, inter alia, you don't think I know whether or not I take offence when the English cannot pronounce my surname correctly?  Gosh, that's terribly clever of you, Griff.  Have we ever met?  Have we discussed your ability to see into the real and innermost thoughts of complete strangers, of which even they themselves are blissfully unaware?  Gosh, what powers you have!

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Actually, let me just say for the record that I think Griff is spot on.  Casual racism (particularly when it is embedded/hidden in so called humour) is completely wrong. 

It's just, I don't think this is that.

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On 29/07/2020 at 14:40, DavidM said:

I’m on a 254 day streak now and before that I got on a 300 day streak . Three modules a day , about half an hour . I’m on level 5 now . I can say ‘ where is my penguin ‘ fluently , which I’m sure will be essential when I go to Rome 

Make sure you take your penguin with you otherwise you’ll end up looking stupid. 

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5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Make sure you take your penguin with you otherwise you’ll end up looking stupid. 

I will . And if he wanders off , no worries .

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It’s amazing how alike Griff and Scotchy are, if I didn’t know better I’d speculate that they’re the same person. 

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44 minutes ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

So, inter alia, you don't think I know whether or not I take offence when the English cannot pronounce my surname correctly?  Gosh, that's terribly clever of you, Griff.  Have we ever met?  Have we discussed your ability to see into the real and innermost thoughts of complete strangers, of which even they themselves are blissfully unaware?  Gosh, what powers you have!

Thanks.


"We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!"

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4 hours ago, Griff said:

I don't agree.

And you are free to feel that way.

Equally, others on this thread are free to feel differently.

You choosing to feel "offended" doesn't mean something was offensive.

If you feel a commentator is racist through their pronunciations, you have control - switch them off - they can't offend you any more.

And I am convinced you have been pronouncing Arundel incorrectly and I've never even met you.

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