Passage to SL?

[Harry Stottle]

If SL requires another club in 2021 to bring it back to 12 teams and considering that promotion is not going to be settled on the field of play how should the team be selected?

By straight simple invitation, or by a point structured list of criteria, and what topics do people think the list of criteria should be. It could well be that if the criteria was applied across the whole of the sport some SL clubs may score less than some Championship clubs.

If as I expect SL will become a closed shop again when the new TV contract comes into being will this selection process have to be performed next season in readiness for the 2022 kick-off and if so just run with 11 clubs next season, or will my assumptions of a closed shop be wrong and we will continue with P&R in 2021.

 

[Blind side johnny]

Two "ifs" there Harry. I appreciate the interest in such a debate but, until they become actualities, then this is purely hypothetical, surely?

[Eddie]

I really hope we continue with P&R, without it RL below SL becomes meaningless and so does the bottom of SL. I wouldn’t watch Wakey v Toulouse on a Thursday night in the scrap for 11th place. 

[Man of Kent]

As discussed in the Toronto thread, Gary Hetherington has already set out his criteria for selecting the 12th club in 2021: finance, stadium, fans, commercial potential, player development.

If you were Super League and trying to grow the cake, you might well be tempted to include Toulouse and encourage a French broadcaster to sign up for a TV deal armed with the knowledge - potentially - that two French clubs are assured for the duration of the contract.

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Two "ifs" there Harry. I appreciate the interest in such a debate but, until they become actualities, then this is purely hypothetical, surely?

Nothing like pre empting a situation johnny, it could be that those in power read pages such as these and could learn what those who go through the turnstiles would like to see happen, I am a great believer in the 7 P's of Proper Planning and Preperation Prevents Pi$$ Poor Performance.

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

As discussed in the Toronto thread, Gary Hetherington has already set out his criteria for selecting the 12th club in 2021: finance, stadium, fans, commercial potential, player development.

If you were Super League and trying to grow the cake, you might well be tempted to include Toulouse and encourage a French broadcaster to sign up for a TV deal armed with the knowledge - potentially - that two French clubs are assured for the duration of the contract.

By those metrics its Toulouse first, followed by London then Leigh then Fev.

[Man of Kent]

7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

By those metrics its Toulouse first, followed by London then Leigh then Fev.

I'd love to see London back in Super League but I realise that one, they have few fans and therefore don't have a mass of potential Sky TV subscribers and two, they couldn't grow the cake in terms of new TV deals.

There's an open goal here for Super League...

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Man of Kent said:

I'd love to see London back in Super League but I realise that one, they have few fans and therefore don't have a mass of potential Sky TV subscribers and two, they couldn't add grow the cake in terms of new TV deals.

There's an open goal here for Super League...

I agree its clearly Toulouse by the criteria Hetherington cites and for good reason. London have the on field precedent of being the best team to ever go down (points wise) I guess and would be the second choice.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

As discussed in the Toronto thread, Gary Hetherington has already set out his criteria for selecting the 12th club in 2021: finance, stadium, fans, commercial potential, player development.

If you were Super League and trying to grow the cake, you might well be tempted to include Toulouse and encourage a French broadcaster to sign up for a TV deal armed with the knowledge - potentially - that two French clubs are assured for the duration of the contract.

Also discussed in the Toronto thread, who would be those applying Mr Hetheringtons suggestion be deemed impartial, without influence or ulterior motive to select the 12th club?.

Are you saying though we should bypass the criteria model and just select Toulouse by invitation for the duration of whatever contract you deem acceptable - for how many seasons? - have you already closed the door to any other club gaining a SL place for a number of years? How many clubs and supporter's do you want to alienate from the game?

Haven't we been down the TV contract route before without it being accomplished, giving Tolouse SL status on a possibility is much the same as when Wakey, Cas and Salford were given the benefit of the doubt that they would improve their stadia,13 years on and still waiting for two of those clubs to accomplish anything.

[Harry Stottle]

10 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

By those metrics its Toulouse first, followed by London then Leigh then Fev.

Why?

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree its clearly Toulouse by the criteria Hetherington cites and for good reason. London have the on field precedent of being the best team to ever go down (points wise) I guess and would be the second choice.

Leigh went down and didn't finish bottom. And if we are going back a couple of seasons Leigh averaged 6,500 whaf would Tolouse bring?

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Also discussed in the Toronto thread, who would be those applying Mr Hetheringtons suggestion be deemed impartial, without influence or ulterior motive to select the 12th club?.

Are you saying though we should bypass the criteria model and just select Toulouse by invitation for the duration of whatever contract you deem acceptable - for how many seasons? - have you already closed the door to any other club gaining a SL place for a number of years? How many clubs and supporter's do you want to alienate from the game?

Haven't we been down the TV contract route before without it being accomplished, giving Tolouse SL status on a possibility is much the same as when Wakey, Cas and Salford were given the benefit of the doubt that they would improve their stadia,13 years on and still waiting for two of those clubs to accomplish anything.

I'm not playing your game, Harold We all know almost all your one-eyed posts are essentially about why Leigh should be in Super League!

It wouldn't be rocket science for the governing body/bodies to select a panel that could independently arrive at the sensible selection. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

Why?

Toulouse are clearly who Hetherington is intimating in his comments. London were in Super League less than a year ago and have one of the best examples of youth player development in the whole game whilst also being fully professional. Then Leigh who have recent super league experience and good crowds but are not wholly full time and Fev are who are a lesser version of Leigh by those metrics. 

Perhaps should include Bradford on that list too.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leigh went down and didn't finish bottom.

They lost the relegation playoff just like KR did the previous year.

[Griff]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leigh went down and didn't finish bottom. And if we are going back a couple of seasons Leigh averaged 6,500 what would Toulouse bring?

Dunno.

Why don't we find out ?

[Tommygilf]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Leigh went down and didn't finish bottom. And if we are going back a couple of seasons Leigh averaged 6,500 whaf would Tolouse bring?

Added a second point there H!

Not sure, they got a really good crowd against Toronto at their new ground last Year iirc. As I'm sure you'll point out that includes no away fans, and we've seen the Catalans example of a huge growth (3 fold plus) in crowds between Super League and not. I'd expect similar levels at Olympique.

[redjonn]

I'd much rather the administrators choose to focus on an Anglo/French league rather than transatlantic.  

Whether that included the likes of Fev, Leigh or whatever but more French clubs for sure - two would  be good 2nd step.

Mind you if a Californian  club pops up to be part of the mix of NA clubs then that may have the administrators going in another direction before finishing the focus on Anglo/French as once before.

 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Man of Kent said:

As discussed in the Toronto thread, Gary Hetherington has already set out his criteria for selecting the 12th club in 2021: finance, stadium, fans, commercial potential, player development.

If you were Super League and trying to grow the cake, you might well be tempted to include Toulouse and encourage a French broadcaster to sign up for a TV deal armed with the knowledge - potentially - that two French clubs are assured for the duration of the contract.

Would English clubs expect a share of a French TV deal though? 
 

This is of course a rhetorical question. 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, SL17 said:

Complete speculation all round. Who knows which clubs will come out the other side of this pandemic?

Indeed.

[OriginalMrC]

I thought Fev had got first dibs... 

[sweaty craiq]

45 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

By those metrics its Toulouse first, followed by London then Leigh then Fev.

Depends on points per criteria

ie Crowds - Leigh have by far the highest outside SL and 4x London in recent SL. Does Sky want to show empty stadiums with no atmosphere?

Finance/Commercial potential - TO and Fev are unknown, London and Leigh will have recent income/P&L data from the time in SL the RFL can draw upon. TO being a city could attract the biggest number in RL but it may not

Potential - London and TO are the larger populations, London has failed miserably to draw a crowd and TO is unknown but being a RU city has a good chance. Leigh are a shoe in for 7k plus gates based upon 2017 and would quickly set up a decent academy in Y2 if granted a Cat 1 status, Fev could do the same but will struggle to average 6-7k gates. Leigh and Fev would draw from the same pools as existing Cat 1 academys do, as they currently draw upon Leigh and Fev lads

Stadium - TO move to the RU stadium is a positive if maintained but clashes could be fun, LSV is the better of all.

Conclusion - all have good cases, all have risk, most are better than some current SL clubs and all are too big for the Championship together with Bradford and Newcastle, plus Ottawa and New York if they happen. 

Solution - expand SL to 20 clubs over 2 divisions with a 3 year licence review. Non UK clubs must provide there own TV deal, but 3 NAmerican clubs and 3 French (Avignon) should help that, and we should be looking at 2x 12 at the review.

[Harry Stottle]

48 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

I'm not playing your game, Harold We all know almost all your one-eyed posts are essentially about why Leigh should be in Super League!

It wouldn't be rocket science for the governing body/bodies to select a panel that could independently arrive at the sensible selection. 

All along I have said I want nothing more than P&R to be the way into SL, now compare my one eyed posts with your championing Toulouse on speculation and "I'd love to see London back in SL" not that much difference between us MoK is there.

[Man of Kent]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All along I have said I want nothing more than P&R to be the way into SL, now compare my one eyed posts with your championing Toulouse on speculation and "I'd love to see London back in SL" not that much difference between us MoK is there.

Massive difference between us, bud. I want what's best for the game, not Leigh

To answer your earlier point, Toulouse could be given three-year dispensation from relegation a la Catalans so that they can be protected yet jettisoned if necessary.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

I really hope we continue with P&R, without it RL below SL becomes meaningless and so does the bottom of SL. I wouldn’t watch Wakey v Toulouse on a Thursday night in the scrap for 11th place. 

This will be highlighted in the coming months of SL coverage, without Relegation in that division there will be no point whatsoever in screening games between those with no hope of making the play offs, unlike last season when interest in results of those games came from all quarters.

[The Daddy]

Based on the metrics described by Gary Hetherington it could only be Toulouse, they would be the only club that could add value by increasing visibility in France.

Of all the championship clubs they are the only one that could get over 10,000 regardless of previous attendances. Catalans crowds were even less than Toulouse's before they entered SL and it increased ten fold when they got into SL. 

The other advantage that Toulouse will have is there ability to draw supporters from neighbouring/nearby regions and towns where there is no top level RL. For example, they've already played a couple of games in Albi and last time round pulled a crowd of 6,000.

Detractors will say they don't have presence in the city, i disagree, they have a decent core support and on top of that they will draw on support from these neighbouring areas like Albi, Lot-et-Garonne and across the South West.

When Catalan played Hull KR in Toulouse a few years ago the attendance was 13,000, alot of the people who went were from the wider South West region.

I expect that the draw of watching SL will bring those people out, the bigger the event the bigger the crowd. No other Championship club has the potential to be a big city AND regional team that can draw 10,000 or near it. With them playing at Stade Ernst Wallon it is possible.

I would also expect them to get a big crowd for games against Catalan Dragons, it's entirely possible that those derby games could attract anywhere between 15,000 and 19,000.