Passage to SL?

[Smudger06]

Close the shop after letting in London & Toulouse, Toronto ain't coming back, so a 13. 

Sit back and watch the sport die. 

A few hardy heads on here, not least the Parksider have been right all along about the farce of Toronto. They'll be proved right about closed shops and teams that don't bring paying TV deals or away fans contributing to the death, but hey, what great & massive names they carry, we could strike lucky on an overseas TV deal.

[Liverpool Rover]

I wasn’t sure whether this warranted a new topic so I will put this here. Neil Hudgells proposal for what to do if Toronto don’t come back.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/neil-hudgell-super-league-structure-4383848.amp

[Harry Stottle]

33 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Close the shop after letting in London & Toulouse, Toronto ain't coming back, so a 13. 

Sit back and watch the sport die. 

A few hardy heads on here, not least the Parksider have been right all along about the farce of Toronto. They'll be proved right about closed shops and teams that don't bring paying TV deals or away fans contributing to the death, but hey, what great & massive names they carry, we could strike lucky on an overseas TV deal.

And don't dismiss a resurgent French international team for the 2066 World Cup, providing the selection criteria is altered to those who have ever bought a string of onions, reeks of garlic or had a forefather who stormed the Bastille.

Just saying.

[Harry Stottle]

9 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I wasn’t sure whether this warranted a new topic so I will put this here. Neil Hudgells proposal for what to do if Toronto don’t come back.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/neil-hudgell-super-league-structure-4383848.amp

Yep can see how that would benefit him and the Rovers, no relegation = boring.

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

He still cares about away fans Tommy, they are vital piece of the puzzle. Not to be dismissed due to the sporting culture in Britain. 

Not vital mate

[Liverpool Rover]

11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep can see how that would benefit him and the Rovers, no relegation = boring.

On the flip side if Leigh were promoted next year under this proposal they would have three guaranteed years in Super League so it would be their big chance to establish themselves as a Super League club.

[Hela Wigmen]

19 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I wasn’t sure whether this warranted a new topic so I will put this here. Neil Hudgells proposal for what to do if Toronto don’t come back.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/neil-hudgell-super-league-structure-4383848.amp

Rugby League summed up for me, that. Not thinking beyond a three year period. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

On the flip side if Leigh were promoted next year under this proposal they would have three guaranteed years in Super League so it would their big chance to establish themselves as a Super League club.

Would it surprise you if I was to say I ain't bothered about that LR, I am accused that I don't have "what is best for the game" at heart, but I do not think that there would be anything more damaging to the sport than a closed shop/licensing/franchise format, standards will drop in both the Championship and the also rans of SL, I am quite happy to compete for the opportunity to play in SL, and once there strive to stay in it.

I would never have dropped the 8's, as a fan of a club who appeared in more than most I enjoyed every year we were competing in it promotion or relegation and next year start all over again, but I will accept straight P&R as a replacement.

[Smudger06]

Let's be realistic. 

Canadian Clubs absolutely cannot work in the English Club system & competition structure. Not without a Canadian TV deal that is signed and sealed and delivers £3m to each Canadian Club and £200,000 to each other Club. So for a 14 team SL with 2 Canadian teams we would need a TV deal paying out £8.4m a season. Or 1 Canadian Team + 11 other teams = £4.1m per season deal.

We cannot substitute a real, paying, Canadian TV Deal for a rich owner either. We don't really know how much money the owner has or how much heart and commitment the owner has to fund his RL perpetually in lieu of said TV Deal. It's insanity + a bit of desperation thrown in. If the mighty NFL couldn't make trans Atlantic work (WLAF / NFL Europe) we have no chance at all. We gave it a shot with TWP, it came to what was an inevitable end. 

Let's look at France without rose tinted glasses......

Elstone was right. We need a French TV Deal that actually pays, otherwise we are in the same boat as the Canada situation. 

The good thing about France is that our code is already played there. Up to and including a semi-pro level (elite1) 

+ the Cash required from a paying TV Deal is a lot less than one required from a Canadian TV Deal. 

Elstone probably required a French TV deal that is signed and sealed and delivers £0.5m to each French Club and £50,000 to each other Club. So for a 14 team SL with 2 French teams he would need a TV deal paying out £1.6m a season. Or 1 French Team + 11 other teams = £1.05m per season deal. 

Everything else is just a wing and a prayer and a throw of the dice, including the Dragons Catalans model as of now. The thing in Catalans favour is it offers a nice away trip for everyone as well as that prayer / desperation of that TV Deal msterialising. 

[Smudger06]

29 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would it surprise you if I was to say I ain't bothered about that LR, I am accused that I don't have "what is best for the game" at heart, but I do not think that there would be anything more damaging to the sport than a closed shop/licensing/franchise format, standards will drop in both the Championship and the also rans of SL, I am quite happy to compete for the opportunity to play in SL, and once there strive to stay in it.

I would never have dropped the 8's, as a fan of a club who appeared in more than most I enjoyed every year we were competing in it promotion or relegation and next year start all over again, but I will accept straight P&R as a replacement.

I've said it before quite recently, S8 was a great system in hindsight, at the time I didn't like them, I'm not afraid to admit I was wrong. 

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Nobody does , nobody has said they do , you are arguing with yourself 

Some clubs do Gubby.

[17 stone giant]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yep can see how that would benefit him and the Rovers, no relegation = boring.

How about each of the next three seasons, relegate one from SL and promote two from Championship? That would have the same effect as Hudgell is proposing - albeit without the period of sustainability and long term planning that he also talks about.

[Smudger06]

Super League Premiership - 10 teams

Super League Championship - 10 Teams

Super League Atlantic - 4 teams 

TV;

UK - Sky 

--- Funds;

10 x SL Premiership @ £2.1m (£21m)

10 x SL Championship @ £1.5m (£15m)

4 x SL Atlantic @ £1m (£4m) 

Canada - TSN 

--- Funds;

2 x SL Atlantic @ £3.5m (£7m)

10 x SL Premiership @ £0.25m (£2.5m)

France - BeIN 

--- Funds;

2 x SL Atlantic @ £1.5m (£3m) 

10 x SL Premiership @ £0.1m (£1m) 

= £53.5m funding required from 3 x separate TV Markets. 

RFL to earn from a Levy on the gate of all Clubs home games as per some kind of Santioning agreement. 

SL Atlantic (no p&r) 

Premiership & championship (1 up & 1 down) 

Atlantic & premiership seasons integrated through cross conference games & playoff formula. 

[Harry Stottle]

24 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Super League Premiership - 10 teams

Super League Championship - 10 Teams

Super League Atlantic - 4 teams 

TV;

UK - Sky 

--- Funds;

10 x SL Premiership @ £2.1m (£21m)

10 x SL Championship @ £1.5m (£15m)

4 x SL Atlantic @ £1m (£4m) 

Canada - TSN 

--- Funds;

2 x SL Atlantic @ £3.5m (£7m)

10 x SL Premiership @ £0.25m (£2.5m)

France - BeIN 

--- Funds;

2 x SL Atlantic @ £1.5m (£3m) 

10 x SL Premiership @ £0.1m (£1m) 

= £53.5m funding required from 3 x separate TV Markets. 

RFL to earn from a Levy on the gate of all Clubs home games as per some kind of Santioning agreement. 

SL Atlantic (no p&r) 

Premiership & championship (1 up & 1 down) 

Atlantic & premiership seasons integrated through cross conference games & playoff formula. 

You grabbed my attention more with:-

Let's be realistic. 

Canadian Clubs absolutely cannot work in the English Club system & competition structure., Smudge.

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You grabbed my attention more with:-

Let's be realistic. 

Canadian Clubs absolutely cannot work in the English Club system & competition structure., Smudge.

Just back of the fag packet, quick working out as what cash needs to be stumped up as a minimum from overseas Harry. 

[The Dude]

2 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

Close the shop after letting in London & Toulouse, Toronto ain't coming back, so a 13. 

Sit back and watch the sport die. 

A few hardy heads on here, not least the Parksider have been right all along about the farce of Toronto. They'll be proved right about closed shops and teams that don't bring paying TV deals or away fans contributing to the death, but hey, what great & massive names they carry, we could strike lucky on an overseas TV deal.

Watch the sport die when you have teams from towns of 50,000 people in Super League. Sky wants London, Newcastle, and other cities in Super League. TV deals will only decease without them. Revenue will not increase from towns and villages. 

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Watch the sport die when you have teams from towns of 50,000 people in Super League. Sky wants London, Newcastle, and other cities in Super League. TV deals will only decease without them. Revenue will not increase from towns and villages. 

Well at least you mention areas that Sky can send its RL production team and have actual sky customers and potential customers, that's a start. 

[sweaty craiq]

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £9.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £10.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

Yes 40m currently, so the same needs to be generated from within the UK and additionally 13/14m from overseas. It is a big ask, unfortunately to sustain both an overseas element and p&r it's needed as bare minimum. Elstone needs to sell it if SL wants it. 

[Tommygilf]

32 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Well at least you mention areas that Sky can send its RL production team and have actual sky customers and potential customers, that's a start. 

There's a big presumption there that Sky see RL as a way to sell Sky TV boxes and Sky sports packages. The two issues I'd have with that are A, how many people buy sky just for Rugby League, and B, how many Championship etc fans don't buy Sky sports currently because their team isn't in Super League? I'd wager the answer to both is very minimal in the sums sky deals with.

Seeing that RL is now unlikely to drive TV subscription sales, Sky want a sport with an increased profile to increase casual viewership for ad revenue. In the global village the world is today, those teams being British or not matters less than the image of the sport they are trying to sell.

[Smudger06]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's a big presumption there that Sky see RL as a way to sell Sky TV boxes and Sky sports packages. The two issues I'd have with that are A, how many people buy sky just for Rugby League, and B, how many Championship etc fans don't buy Sky sports currently because their team isn't in Super League? I'd wager the answer to both is very minimal in the sums sky deals with.

Seeing that RL is now unlikely to drive TV subscription sales, Sky want a sport with an increased profile to increase casual viewership for ad revenue. In the global village the world is today, those teams being British or not matters less than the image of the sport they are trying to sell.

The sums certainly are very minimal in terms of what sky deals with (Premier League). What can be assured is that the sums = the cost of holding the rights + the cost of producing the content. Advertising is a supplemental bonus (small profit) when it comes to subscription TV. Then there's the extra Now TV sales which will be additional supplemental bonus (small profit) clearly one driver behind all this is not the minimal sums but the live sports content when Sky has no live premier league to show. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Smudger06 said:

The sums certainly are very minimal in terms of what sky deals with (Premier League). What can be assured is that the sums = the cost of holding the rights + the cost of producing the content. Advertising is a supplemental bonus (small profit) when it comes to subscription TV. Then there's the extra Now TV sales which will be additional supplemental bonus (small profit) clearly one driver behind all this is not the minimal sums but the live sports content when Sky has no live premier league to show. 

Agreed, which actually means as long as they can sell the competition as good TV viewing and get good ratings they don't really care. Hence why SBW and Toronto got so much focus in all Sky's own advertisement and Leeds are on every other week. 

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed, which actually means as long as they can sell the competition as good TV viewing and get good ratings they don't really care. Hence why SBW and Toronto got so much focus in all Sky's own advertisement and Leeds are on every other week. 

There will come a point where their advanced market research indicates to them that subscription revenue directly  relating to RL Content is less than production costs + Rights holder cost. At that point they will offer SL / RFL a significantly reduced sum for the rights so that their own calculations align. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

There will come a point where their advanced market research indicates to them that subscription revenue directly  relating to RL Content is less than production costs + Rights holder cost. At that point they will offer SL / RFL a significantly reduced sum for the rights so that their own calculations align. 

Depends on viewership. Increased profile of the game, importantly a more diversified in every way audience for the game and the sport increases its value to Sky. With the best will in the world several potential clubs are more of the same in a lot of ways.

Currently RL is relatively cheap to produce. 

[Smudger06]

According to broadcaster Joe Buck, Fox Sports plans on using advanced technology to provide its television audience with an experience similar to what it has watched in the past.

In an interview on SiriusXM with Andy Cohen Live, Buck said the network is exploring the possibility of pumping in crowd noise and projecting virtual vans in empty stadiums during the broadcasts.

“It’s pretty much a done deal. I think whoever is going to be at that control is going to have to be really good at their job and be realistic with how a crowd would react depending on what just happened on the field. So it’s really important. They’re also looking at ways to put virtual fans in the stands, so when you see a wide shot it looks like the stadium is jam-packed and in fact it’ll be empty.”