Passage to SL?

[ATLANTISMAN]

As I have stated on here numerous times we are light years away from a French TV deal (MONEY) the chances would increase 100% if Toulouse were in SL.

RL needs a stable plan that for once it sticks to.

* SL 1/2

* Super 8,s

* At least 6 Internationals a year 

We can all argue about it until the cows come home however in my opinion this is the only thing that will work otherwise we will be relegated to a small minor sport known as a TV filler.

We also need to get our act together sponsorship wise I estimate that current RFL/SL partners are no more than 1 Million pounds a year (Maybe 20/30% less) back in 2005 this was running at around £ 3 Million thats a 60/70% decrease.

 

We need to use the World Cup to promote the international game long term especially the teams that most here in the UK don't know play RL like FIJI/TONGA/SAMOA/PNG matches against these teams along with France have massive promotional potential outside the heartlands places like PORTSMOUTH/PLYMOUTH/BRISTOL etc.

 

GROW THE INTERNATIONALS AND GROW THE GAME AND INCREASE TV AND SPONSORSHIP REVENUES 

 

Paul

 

 

 

[Tommygilf]

27 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

As I have stated on here numerous times we are light years away from a French TV deal (MONEY) the chances would increase 100% if Toulouse were in SL.

RL needs a stable plan that for once it sticks to.

* SL 1/2

* Super 8,s

* At least 6 Internationals a year 

We can all argue about it until the cows come home however in my opinion this is the only thing that will work otherwise we will be relegated to a small minor sport known as a TV filler.

We also need to get our act together sponsorship wise I estimate that current RFL/SL partners are no more than 1 Million pounds a year (Maybe 20/30% less) back in 2005 this was running at around £ 3 Million thats a 60/70% decrease.

 

We need to use the World Cup to promote the international game long term especially the teams that most here in the UK don't know play RL like FIJI/TONGA/SAMOA/PNG matches against these teams along with France have massive promotional potential outside the heartlands places like PORTSMOUTH/PLYMOUTH/BRISTOL etc.

 

GROW THE INTERNATIONALS AND GROW THE GAME AND INCREASE TV AND SPONSORSHIP REVENUES 

 

Paul

 

 

 

2 teams can guarantee 1 home broadcast a week for a season, thats not loads but it is a start

[wiganermike]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £9.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

If the aim is to interest French or Canadian broadcasters and to attract TV deals from other territories to supplement the UK contract then an approach of 2 licensed leagues with P&R between them has a lot of merit. It gives us the opportunity to guarantee for the length of the broadcast deal a set number of participants from within the overseas territories without having a contrived system designed to avoid them being relegated from the top division. TV deals could be struck on the basis of getting coverage for both divisions providing 2 games from the top tier and 1 from the second tier per week for the UK broadcaster. Using the French as an example as we currently have more than one French club in the top two divisions a deal could be sought with French broadcasters providing all Catalans and all Toulouse games regardless of the division in which they featured plus a set number of games from the top tier and a set number from the second tier in addition to those featuring the French clubs over the course of the season. The same approach could be followed for North American clubs' games to achieve a broadcast deal in North America.

I would have the responsibility for sourcing the broadcast deals centralised rather than making it the responsibility of the overseas clubs (they have enough things to do already). All TV money would then be fed into a single central pot before being distributed to all of the clubs.

[Oldbear]

3 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

We cannot substitute a real, paying, Canadian TV Deal for a rich owner either. We don't really know how much money the owner has or how much heart and commitment the owner has to fund his RL perpetually in lieu of said TV Deal. It's insanity + a bit of desperation thrown in. 

This is where the whole TWP experiment went wrong. The SL rights were already sold to Sportsnet for a bag of beans so there was no TV deal to get, at least until the current arrangement expired. No doubt someone thought Argyles wealth would tide things over till TWP were able to negotiate, and they might have done if Covid19 had never happened. The problem is that even then you were running the risks of

1. Mr Argyle losing patience and walking away

2. TSN and Sportsnet not being interested in SL, except as a schedule filler, which generally means another bag of beans and not $$.

3. TSN and Sportsnet being interested, but not when their Canadian team is cannon fodder for everyone else, which was what was happening prior to the enforced break

Given that we have never been in a position where we can negotiate with Canadian TV companies about a SL TV contract, and certainly not with a strong TWP (not the 0-6 incarnation that started the season), we have no idea what Canadian TV is willing to pay and until we do then perhaps the whole Canadian experiment needs to be put on ice.

[Oldbear]

Following on from the last post, here is a hypothetical TV rights discussion

SL - You know that sport you have been covering for virtually nothing this last couple of years.

Canadian TV exec - You mean the one we hide away on Sportsnet World?

SL - Yes that one, well we would like you to pay for it now, like real $.

TV exec - Why would we do that?

SL - It has a Canadian team now, Toronto Wolfpack?

TV exec - Are they contenders? Will their chase for titles ignite the nation like it did for the Raptors?

SL - Actually they are s**t, dead last, but they have a rich owner who promises to change that

TV exec - We will talk again when he does, in the meantime here’s another bag of beans for the next 3 years, have a nice day!

[Smudger06]

2 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

This is where the whole TWP experiment went wrong. The SL rights were already sold to Sportsnet for a bag of beans so there was no TV deal to get, at least until the current arrangement expired. No doubt someone thought Argyles wealth would tide things over till TWP were able to negotiate, and they might have done if Covid19 had never happened. The problem is that even then you were running the risks of

1. Mr Argyle losing patience and walking away

2. TSN and Sportsnet not being interested in SL, except as a schedule filler, which generally means another bag of beans and not $$.

3. TSN and Sportsnet being interested, but not when their Canadian team is cannon fodder for everyone else, which was what was happening prior to the enforced break

Given that we have never been in a position where we can negotiate with Canadian TV companies about a SL TV contract, and certainly not with a strong TWP (not the 0-6 incarnation that started the season), we have no idea what Canadian TV is willing to pay and until we do then perhaps the whole Canadian experiment needs to be put on ice.

I think you are bang on. I think Argyle gave the impression he had the money and the patience to hang on until the present rights expired. I don't think there is time to put the experiment on ice. I think Ottawa Aces have assumed the shield of a NA expansion, only 1 season until Canadian rights can be negotiated seperately, a better RL administrator, a better Venue and an RFL membership. If a Canadian Broadcaster can pay £4.5m I think they are viable. If not, the NA expansion is over. 

[Oldbear]

3 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

I think you are bang on. I think Argyle gave the impression he had the money and the patience to hang on until the present rights expired. I don't think there is time to put the experiment on ice. I think Ottawa Aces have assumed the shield of a NA expansion, only 1 season until Canadian rights can be negotiated seperately, a better RL administrator, a better Venue and an RFL membership. If a Canadian Broadcaster can pay £4.5m I think they are viable. If not, the NA expansion is over. 

In fact I would go as far as to say Ottawa will not take the field until Canadian rights can be negotiated separately. I think in Argyles case he gambled (let’s face it that’s what he does in his day job), on having the finances available until the new deal could kick in, as I say he might have got away with it had it not been for Covid, one thing that would have hurt though is the team’s performance since promotion, Canadians get behind winners, it’s OK to say Toronto fans of other sports are used to losing, but to get Canadians from other cities to back a Toronto team, and watch them on TV, then they need to win!

[redjonn]

1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

According to broadcaster Joe Buck, Fox Sports plans on using advanced technology to provide its television audience with an experience similar to what it has watched in the past.

In an interview on SiriusXM with Andy Cohen Live, Buck said the network is exploring the possibility of pumping in crowd noise and projecting virtual vans in empty stadiums during the broadcasts.

“It’s pretty much a done deal. I think whoever is going to be at that control is going to have to be really good at their job and be realistic with how a crowd would react depending on what just happened on the field. So it’s really important. They’re also looking at ways to put virtual fans in the stands, so when you see a wide shot it looks like the stadium is jam-packed and in fact it’ll be empty.”

Interesting.

Although one has to wonder if ultimately TV will be competing with ground attendee's if they get the TV experience better and better than being at a ground.

This particular with niche sports like RL.

[Hela Wigmen]

Chuck all the teams in a hat and have a cup draw with the last team out as the twelfth place team. 
 

“It’s between Batley Bulldogs and Swinton Lions...the final ball out is....number 1, Batley Bulldogs...congratulations to Swinton Lions who take the twelfth place in Super League 2021”. 

[Liverpool Rover]

6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would it surprise you if I was to say I ain't bothered about that LR, I am accused that I don't have "what is best for the game" at heart, but I do not think that there would be anything more damaging to the sport than a closed shop/licensing/franchise format, standards will drop in both the Championship and the also rans of SL, I am quite happy to compete for the opportunity to play in SL, and once there strive to stay in it.

I would never have dropped the 8's, as a fan of a club who appeared in more than most I enjoyed every year we were competing in it promotion or relegation and next year start all over again, but I will accept straight P&R as a replacement.

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

Absolutely. People forget that with 14 and even currently with 12 teams in Super League, the problem of quality was a problem of finance. Teams bought second rate aussies and english journeymen because their academies and facilities were rubbish so they didn't produce the youngsters and couldn't pay up to the salary cap. 

P/R didn't really solve that. Bradford and London couldn't afford to increase spending and went down. Wakefield and Salford are still underspending, have both been in a million pound game and the latter dropped their academy altogether. Widnes were effectively the same financially. Leigh were stuck with some average players and the qualifiers. 

In the two years we've had automatic p/r as opposed to the qualifiers, London were open about not spending to the cap and despite being within a victory of survival, ultimately went down. And now Toronto have come up, withdrawn, and no one else will go down. London particularly did not encourage the others to spend significantly to avoid the drop. 

Regardless, at least a quarter of Super league were on a significantly smaller budget (by at least 3 figures) than the rest of the league before covid. It hasn't solved the fundamental problem that there is not enough money in the game (nor do I think it is a silver bullet that should be expected to do that either).

[Oldbear]

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

You don't 

[Oldbear]

1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

You don't 

I know, I was just hoping that someone way smarter than me was able to come up with a solution!

[Oldbear]

Oh and before anyone wonders why I didn’t focus on London as a possible can I say I think they have done amazing work with their player development, I think David Hughes deserves a knighthood for what he has done and their fans are incredible people who deserve medals for what they put up with, however there’s just not enough of them, and even if there were, the stadium will always be an issue. Trailfinders is not a viable solution and going anywhere else puts them at the mercy of soccer teams who will screw them for rent, then kick them out at a moments notice. Buying land to develop in London is a non starter so their future may always be at the Championship level, developing players to move on.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

26 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

So an 8 team SL then, double loop fixtures on the road in Toronto, tell the fans it’s a Toronto team each time and hope they don’t realize whilst getting a Canadian tv deal for the ‘big 8’. Bobs yer uncle.

[Oldbear]

1 hour ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

So an 8 team SL then, double loop fixtures on the road in Toronto, tell the fans it’s a Toronto team each time and hope they don’t realize whilst getting a Canadian tv deal for the ‘big 8’. Bobs yer uncle.

Ever thought of applying to be SL Chief Exec!

[Gooleboy]

6 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Ever thought of applying to be SL Chief Exec!

Nah, pointless, the current incumbent is doing such a great job! 

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

So tell me LR, if your club had not been in those relegation battles would Mr Hudgell have spent to improve his team to avoid the drop, it doesn't take a genius to read between the lines of all his 'headline" calls that given the choice of trundling along with what he has and avoiding spending anything he would, add him to those clubs of the same ilk and no threat of jeapordy would have them shrugging their shoulders with a "it doesn't matter attitude".

Then would those ambitious Championship clubs and owner's (Mr Hudgell wouldn't) have the same desire to finance/improve their teams to battle it out for the success if there was no promotion to play for, no Chucking Fance, and a goodly portion of fans would walk as well and why wouldn't they. So yes it would be the fault of the clubs but the overriding factor that Complacency of some SL clubs and the Lack of Enthusiasm of some Championship clubs will have been brought about with no P&R.

Leeds and Warrington should never ever have been in the situation they were, for both it was just a combination of Pi$$ poor management, bad recruitment and totally ordinary coaching, if they had been relegated who are what could they have highlighted to apportion any blame, absolutely nothing or no one, and on the situation of Catalan the same applies we are continually informed they are one if the wealthier clubs in SL, could I offer they just chose the wrong antipodeans?

[Harry Stottle]

10 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely. People forget that with 14 and even currently with 12 teams in Super League, the problem of quality was a problem of finance. Teams bought second rate aussies and english journeymen because their academies and facilities were rubbish so they didn't produce the youngsters and couldn't pay up to the salary cap. 

P/R didn't really solve that. Bradford and London couldn't afford to increase spending and went down. Wakefield and Salford are still underspending, have both been in a million pound game and the latter dropped their academy altogether. Widnes were effectively the same financially. Leigh were stuck with some average players and the qualifiers. 

In the two years we've had automatic p/r as opposed to the qualifiers, London were open about not spending to the cap and despite being within a victory of survival, ultimately went down. And now Toronto have come up, withdrawn, and no one else will go down. London particularly did not encourage the others to spend significantly to avoid the drop. 

Regardless, at least a quarter of Super league were on a significantly smaller budget (by at least 3 figures) than the rest of the league before covid. It hasn't solved the fundamental problem that there is not enough money in the game (nor do I think it is a silver bullet that should be expected to do that either).

Yes as in anything in life finance is the driver if you ain't got it you are going nowhere,  but I can't see the relevance of your reply to LR's post, you describe the ailment but offer no treatment.

Back to the old chestnut of we can't afford to bring player's through without stabillity, what a complete load of tosh, 2020 is the 6th season we have been away from the closed shop, there has been a plethora of new young talent emerging in that time, just look at your own club for an example, they have brought some wonderful talent through in the last 6 season's, and a lotof them in the times of crisis of threatened relegation, what would you sooner have done Tommy gone out and splashed the cash on first rate Aussies?

I would strongly suggest that in your clubs situation a cap restriction has brought more talent to the fore, if Leeds could have bought themselves out of trouble I have no doubt they would have done. 

So what are you actually saying in this piece, we know the game is poor, what is your solution?

[meast]

21 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Wasn't the '13 tournament a financial success Meast? Or have I dreamt that.

PS re the other question I asked of you, after you have secured a team from the Championship for '21, what for '22 are you considering?

Financially yes, but after a successful world cup, we failed to capitalise on it, the international game should have been hammered, take England games or even other international teams around the country, Bristol, for example had a superb crowd for USA V Cook islands, then what? instead of pushing the game to the Bristolians we didn't bother, we played one game there and moved on, even by helping the Bristol sonics club, but we didn't, we just patted ourselves on the back and got on with the day to day regular stuff.

We should be pushing the world cup NOW, get some of the teams over as soon as restrictions allow, get them playing tour matches etc, get people talking about it NOW, get people looking forward to it NOW, not a week before it starts.

RE: the other thing, I'm not sure, I'd be tempted to stick with P&R , what do you suggest? 

[meast]

21 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

That's fine , then do the same for relegation , it would take the pressure off the Giants , less so CAS and Wakey 

Or we just resort to licensing? 2 in and 2 out every 3 years?

[GUBRATS]

2 minutes ago, meast said:

Or we just resort to licensing? 2 in and 2 out every 3 years?

No thanks 

[meast]

18 hours ago, Liverpool Rover said:

I wasn’t sure whether this warranted a new topic so I will put this here. Neil Hudgells proposal for what to do if Toronto don’t come back.

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/neil-hudgell-super-league-structure-4383848.amp

Impossible to read due to all the intrusive adverts, same as most through that company, basically, he is saying to increase by 1 club per year and build that way?

[GUBRATS]

4 minutes ago, meast said:

Impossible to read due to all the intrusive adverts, same as most through that company, basically, he is saying to increase by 1 club per year and build that way?

Or if we let another couple of clubs in, there's less chance of HKR being relegated again