Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Harry Stottle

Passage to SL?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

Close the shop after letting in London & Toulouse, Toronto ain't coming back, so a 13. 

Sit back and watch the sport die. 

A few hardy heads on here, not least the Parksider have been right all along about the farce of Toronto. They'll be proved right about closed shops and teams that don't bring paying TV deals or away fans contributing to the death, but hey, what great & massive names they carry, we could strike lucky on an overseas TV deal.

Watch the sport die when you have teams from towns of 50,000 people in Super League. Sky wants London, Newcastle, and other cities in Super League. TV deals will only decease without them. Revenue will not increase from towns and villages. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, The Dude said:

Watch the sport die when you have teams from towns of 50,000 people in Super League. Sky wants London, Newcastle, and other cities in Super League. TV deals will only decease without them. Revenue will not increase from towns and villages. 

Well at least you mention areas that Sky can send its RL production team and have actual sky customers and potential customers, that's a start. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £9.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

Edited by sweaty craiq
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sweaty craiq said:

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £10.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

Yes 40m currently, so the same needs to be generated from within the UK and additionally 13/14m from overseas. It is a big ask, unfortunately to sustain both an overseas element and p&r it's needed as bare minimum. Elstone needs to sell it if SL wants it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Well at least you mention areas that Sky can send its RL production team and have actual sky customers and potential customers, that's a start. 

There's a big presumption there that Sky see RL as a way to sell Sky TV boxes and Sky sports packages. The two issues I'd have with that are A, how many people buy sky just for Rugby League, and B, how many Championship etc fans don't buy Sky sports currently because their team isn't in Super League? I'd wager the answer to both is very minimal in the sums sky deals with.

Seeing that RL is now unlikely to drive TV subscription sales, Sky want a sport with an increased profile to increase casual viewership for ad revenue. In the global village the world is today, those teams being British or not matters less than the image of the sport they are trying to sell.

Edited by Tommygilf
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's a big presumption there that Sky see RL as a way to sell Sky TV boxes and Sky sports packages. The two issues I'd have with that are A, how many people buy sky just for Rugby League, and B, how many Championship etc fans don't buy Sky sports currently because their team isn't in Super League? I'd wager the answer to both is very minimal in the sums sky deals with.

Seeing that RL is now unlikely to drive TV subscription sales, Sky want a sport with an increased profile to increase casual viewership for ad revenue. In the global village the world is today, those teams being British or not matters less than the image of the sport they are trying to sell.

The sums certainly are very minimal in terms of what sky deals with (Premier League). What can be assured is that the sums = the cost of holding the rights + the cost of producing the content. Advertising is a supplemental bonus (small profit) when it comes to subscription TV. Then there's the extra Now TV sales which will be additional supplemental bonus (small profit) clearly one driver behind all this is not the minimal sums but the live sports content when Sky has no live premier league to show. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Smudger06 said:

The sums certainly are very minimal in terms of what sky deals with (Premier League). What can be assured is that the sums = the cost of holding the rights + the cost of producing the content. Advertising is a supplemental bonus (small profit) when it comes to subscription TV. Then there's the extra Now TV sales which will be additional supplemental bonus (small profit) clearly one driver behind all this is not the minimal sums but the live sports content when Sky has no live premier league to show. 

Agreed, which actually means as long as they can sell the competition as good TV viewing and get good ratings they don't really care. Hence why SBW and Toronto got so much focus in all Sky's own advertisement and Leeds are on every other week. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed, which actually means as long as they can sell the competition as good TV viewing and get good ratings they don't really care. Hence why SBW and Toronto got so much focus in all Sky's own advertisement and Leeds are on every other week. 

There will come a point where their advanced market research indicates to them that subscription revenue directly  relating to RL Content is less than production costs + Rights holder cost. At that point they will offer SL / RFL a significantly reduced sum for the rights so that their own calculations align. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

There will come a point where their advanced market research indicates to them that subscription revenue directly  relating to RL Content is less than production costs + Rights holder cost. At that point they will offer SL / RFL a significantly reduced sum for the rights so that their own calculations align. 

Depends on viewership. Increased profile of the game, importantly a more diversified in every way audience for the game and the sport increases its value to Sky. With the best will in the world several potential clubs are more of the same in a lot of ways.

Currently RL is relatively cheap to produce. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to broadcaster Joe Buck, Fox Sports plans on using advanced technology to provide its television audience with an experience similar to what it has watched in the past.

In an interview on SiriusXM with Andy Cohen Live, Buck said the network is exploring the possibility of pumping in crowd noise and projecting virtual vans in empty stadiums during the broadcasts.

“It’s pretty much a done deal. I think whoever is going to be at that control is going to have to be really good at their job and be realistic with how a crowd would react depending on what just happened on the field. So it’s really important. They’re also looking at ways to put virtual fans in the stands, so when you see a wide shot it looks like the stadium is jam-packed and in fact it’ll be empty.”

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I have stated on here numerous times we are light years away from a French TV deal (MONEY) the chances would increase 100% if Toulouse were in SL.

RL needs a stable plan that for once it sticks to.

* SL 1/2

* Super 8,s

* At least 6 Internationals a year 

We can all argue about it until the cows come home however in my opinion this is the only thing that will work otherwise we will be relegated to a small minor sport known as a TV filler.

We also need to get our act together sponsorship wise I estimate that current RFL/SL partners are no more than 1 Million pounds a year (Maybe 20/30% less) back in 2005 this was running at around £ 3 Million thats a 60/70% decrease.

 

We need to use the World Cup to promote the international game long term especially the teams that most here in the UK don't know play RL like FIJI/TONGA/SAMOA/PNG matches against these teams along with France have massive promotional potential outside the heartlands places like PORTSMOUTH/PLYMOUTH/BRISTOL etc.

 

GROW THE INTERNATIONALS AND GROW THE GAME AND INCREASE TV AND SPONSORSHIP REVENUES 

 

Paul

 

 

 

Edited by ATLANTISMAN

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

As I have stated on here numerous times we are light years away from a French TV deal (MONEY) the chances would increase 100% if Toulouse were in SL.

RL needs a stable plan that for once it sticks to.

* SL 1/2

* Super 8,s

* At least 6 Internationals a year 

We can all argue about it until the cows come home however in my opinion this is the only thing that will work otherwise we will be relegated to a small minor sport known as a TV filler.

We also need to get our act together sponsorship wise I estimate that current RFL/SL partners are no more than 1 Million pounds a year (Maybe 20/30% less) back in 2005 this was running at around £ 3 Million thats a 60/70% decrease.

 

We need to use the World Cup to promote the international game long term especially the teams that most here in the UK don't know play RL like FIJI/TONGA/SAMOA/PNG matches against these teams along with France have massive promotional potential outside the heartlands places like PORTSMOUTH/PLYMOUTH/BRISTOL etc.

 

GROW THE INTERNATIONALS AND GROW THE GAME AND INCREASE TV AND SPONSORSHIP REVENUES 

 

Paul

 

 

 

2 teams can guarantee 1 home broadcast a week for a season, thats not loads but it is a start

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

That figure is a big ask, not that it shouldnt be aimed for but working within current money, is it £40m pa?

SL1 £2m per club x 9 Catalans to source French TV deal = £18m

SL 2 £1.2m per club ie 2 SL clubs plus Fev, Widnes, Bradford, Leigh, TO, Avignon, London and Newcastle with TO and TW  sourcing own TV deal = £9.6m.

SL1 T5 play off, with 12th relegated and 11th in play off.

SL 2 Winner promoted 2-4 in play off with SL1 11th

Min salary spends SL1  £3m, SL2 £2m. No cap but accounts must balance at end of season

3 year Franchise application, objective 2 x 12.

Elite academy's at Leeds, Hull, Wigan, Saints, Catalans, TO,  Warrington, London and Newcastle. Regional Elite Academies at Leigh - Widnes, Leigh, Salford. Yorkshire - Hudds, Cas, wakey, Fev plus Cumbria.  12 team League structure with GF Central funding £300k per academy. £3.6m

 

If the aim is to interest French or Canadian broadcasters and to attract TV deals from other territories to supplement the UK contract then an approach of 2 licensed leagues with P&R between them has a lot of merit. It gives us the opportunity to guarantee for the length of the broadcast deal a set number of participants from within the overseas territories without having a contrived system designed to avoid them being relegated from the top division. TV deals could be struck on the basis of getting coverage for both divisions providing 2 games from the top tier and 1 from the second tier per week for the UK broadcaster. Using the French as an example as we currently have more than one French club in the top two divisions a deal could be sought with French broadcasters providing all Catalans and all Toulouse games regardless of the division in which they featured plus a set number of games from the top tier and a set number from the second tier in addition to those featuring the French clubs over the course of the season. The same approach could be followed for North American clubs' games to achieve a broadcast deal in North America.

I would have the responsibility for sourcing the broadcast deals centralised rather than making it the responsibility of the overseas clubs (they have enough things to do already). All TV money would then be fed into a single central pot before being distributed to all of the clubs.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

We cannot substitute a real, paying, Canadian TV Deal for a rich owner either. We don't really know how much money the owner has or how much heart and commitment the owner has to fund his RL perpetually in lieu of said TV Deal. It's insanity + a bit of desperation thrown in. 

This is where the whole TWP experiment went wrong. The SL rights were already sold to Sportsnet for a bag of beans so there was no TV deal to get, at least until the current arrangement expired. No doubt someone thought Argyles wealth would tide things over till TWP were able to negotiate, and they might have done if Covid19 had never happened. The problem is that even then you were running the risks of

1. Mr Argyle losing patience and walking away

2. TSN and Sportsnet not being interested in SL, except as a schedule filler, which generally means another bag of beans and not $$.

3. TSN and Sportsnet being interested, but not when their Canadian team is cannon fodder for everyone else, which was what was happening prior to the enforced break

Given that we have never been in a position where we can negotiate with Canadian TV companies about a SL TV contract, and certainly not with a strong TWP (not the 0-6 incarnation that started the season), we have no idea what Canadian TV is willing to pay and until we do then perhaps the whole Canadian experiment needs to be put on ice.

  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Following on from the last post, here is a hypothetical TV rights discussion

SL - You know that sport you have been covering for virtually nothing this last couple of years.

Canadian TV exec - You mean the one we hide away on Sportsnet World?

SL - Yes that one, well we would like you to pay for it now, like real $.

TV exec - Why would we do that?

SL - It has a Canadian team now, Toronto Wolfpack?

TV exec - Are they contenders? Will their chase for titles ignite the nation like it did for the Raptors?

SL - Actually they are s**t, dead last, but they have a rich owner who promises to change that

TV exec - We will talk again when he does, in the meantime here’s another bag of beans for the next 3 years, have a nice day!

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

This is where the whole TWP experiment went wrong. The SL rights were already sold to Sportsnet for a bag of beans so there was no TV deal to get, at least until the current arrangement expired. No doubt someone thought Argyles wealth would tide things over till TWP were able to negotiate, and they might have done if Covid19 had never happened. The problem is that even then you were running the risks of

1. Mr Argyle losing patience and walking away

2. TSN and Sportsnet not being interested in SL, except as a schedule filler, which generally means another bag of beans and not $$.

3. TSN and Sportsnet being interested, but not when their Canadian team is cannon fodder for everyone else, which was what was happening prior to the enforced break

Given that we have never been in a position where we can negotiate with Canadian TV companies about a SL TV contract, and certainly not with a strong TWP (not the 0-6 incarnation that started the season), we have no idea what Canadian TV is willing to pay and until we do then perhaps the whole Canadian experiment needs to be put on ice.

I think you are bang on. I think Argyle gave the impression he had the money and the patience to hang on until the present rights expired. I don't think there is time to put the experiment on ice. I think Ottawa Aces have assumed the shield of a NA expansion, only 1 season until Canadian rights can be negotiated seperately, a better RL administrator, a better Venue and an RFL membership. If a Canadian Broadcaster can pay £4.5m I think they are viable. If not, the NA expansion is over. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

I think you are bang on. I think Argyle gave the impression he had the money and the patience to hang on until the present rights expired. I don't think there is time to put the experiment on ice. I think Ottawa Aces have assumed the shield of a NA expansion, only 1 season until Canadian rights can be negotiated seperately, a better RL administrator, a better Venue and an RFL membership. If a Canadian Broadcaster can pay £4.5m I think they are viable. If not, the NA expansion is over. 

In fact I would go as far as to say Ottawa will not take the field until Canadian rights can be negotiated separately. I think in Argyles case he gambled (let’s face it that’s what he does in his day job), on having the finances available until the new deal could kick in, as I say he might have got away with it had it not been for Covid, one thing that would have hurt though is the team’s performance since promotion, Canadians get behind winners, it’s OK to say Toronto fans of other sports are used to losing, but to get Canadians from other cities to back a Toronto team, and watch them on TV, then they need to win!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Smudger06 said:

According to broadcaster Joe Buck, Fox Sports plans on using advanced technology to provide its television audience with an experience similar to what it has watched in the past.

In an interview on SiriusXM with Andy Cohen Live, Buck said the network is exploring the possibility of pumping in crowd noise and projecting virtual vans in empty stadiums during the broadcasts.

“It’s pretty much a done deal. I think whoever is going to be at that control is going to have to be really good at their job and be realistic with how a crowd would react depending on what just happened on the field. So it’s really important. They’re also looking at ways to put virtual fans in the stands, so when you see a wide shot it looks like the stadium is jam-packed and in fact it’ll be empty.”

Interesting.

Although one has to wonder if ultimately TV will be competing with ground attendee's if they get the TV experience better and better than being at a ground.

This particular with niche sports like RL.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Chuck all the teams in a hat and have a cup draw with the last team out as the twelfth place team. 
 

“It’s between Batley Bulldogs and Swinton Lions...the final ball out is....number 1, Batley Bulldogs...congratulations to Swinton Lions who take the twelfth place in Super League 2021”. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Would it surprise you if I was to say I ain't bothered about that LR, I am accused that I don't have "what is best for the game" at heart, but I do not think that there would be anything more damaging to the sport than a closed shop/licensing/franchise format, standards will drop in both the Championship and the also rans of SL, I am quite happy to compete for the opportunity to play in SL, and once there strive to stay in it.

I would never have dropped the 8's, as a fan of a club who appeared in more than most I enjoyed every year we were competing in it promotion or relegation and next year start all over again, but I will accept straight P&R as a replacement.

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said:

If standards drop would that the fault of not having P&R or the fault of the clubs? I would say that it would be the fault of the clubs.

Rovers were in the middle eights every year and I didn’t like the system at all. It wasn’t good for long term planning as we didn’t know for sure what division we would be in the following year and we were at risk of losing Leeds and Warrington who provide Sky with some of their big games and Catalans, who at the time were the only non heartland team in the league, which wouldn’t have been good for a sport that is always criticised for being a northern sport if they had gone down.

Absolutely. People forget that with 14 and even currently with 12 teams in Super League, the problem of quality was a problem of finance. Teams bought second rate aussies and english journeymen because their academies and facilities were rubbish so they didn't produce the youngsters and couldn't pay up to the salary cap. 

P/R didn't really solve that. Bradford and London couldn't afford to increase spending and went down. Wakefield and Salford are still underspending, have both been in a million pound game and the latter dropped their academy altogether. Widnes were effectively the same financially. Leigh were stuck with some average players and the qualifiers. 

In the two years we've had automatic p/r as opposed to the qualifiers, London were open about not spending to the cap and despite being within a victory of survival, ultimately went down. And now Toronto have come up, withdrawn, and no one else will go down. London particularly did not encourage the others to spend significantly to avoid the drop. 

Regardless, at least a quarter of Super league were on a significantly smaller budget (by at least 3 figures) than the rest of the league before covid. It hasn't solved the fundamental problem that there is not enough money in the game (nor do I think it is a silver bullet that should be expected to do that either).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

The truth is for all the closed shop talk we don’t have enough viable candidates to realistically allow it. We currently have one pretty strong group (Saints, Leeds, Wire, Cats, Wigan, Hull), who have good corporate income, good home crowds, decent stadia and access to a stream of young talent, two more teams (Hudds and Cas), both of whom do a great job on the field but have limitations (Hudds is crowd, Cas stadium), off the field, then 3 teams just trying to survive and honestly no stronger than a bunch of championship teams, they just happen to be sitting tenants in the big league. Then we have a vacancy, and the reality is whoever fills it is either going to be one of the latter category and not really offering more to the league than those teams, or a huge risk (Toulouse). Toronto cannot come back without a Canadian TV deal and as much as I would love Newcastle in there it’s just too much of a jump at this time. Then there’s Bradford, a big city club who can attract fans, but have a 3rd World stadium and a 3rd World accounting system to match. Maybe it has to be 11 teams for this and next year, just don’t ask me how we handle Magic.

You don't 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

You don't 

I know, I was just hoping that someone way smarter than me was able to come up with a solution!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh and before anyone wonders why I didn’t focus on London as a possible can I say I think they have done amazing work with their player development, I think David Hughes deserves a knighthood for what he has done and their fans are incredible people who deserve medals for what they put up with, however there’s just not enough of them, and even if there were, the stadium will always be an issue. Trailfinders is not a viable solution and going anywhere else puts them at the mercy of soccer teams who will screw them for rent, then kick them out at a moments notice. Buying land to develop in London is a non starter so their future may always be at the Championship level, developing players to move on.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...