Season ticket options

[gingerjon]

12 hours ago, Dave T said:

That is appalling. I suspect they are getting round this legally by giving refunds if you go begging them. 

I think that's it. The option is there. It's just not straightforward or promoted.

It's pretty shabby.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I think that's it. The option is there. It's just not straightforward or promoted.

It's pretty shabby.

This is quite strong wording though that could see them criticised if they try and claim they are offering refunds:

For clarity, and in light of such positive feedback, refunds will not be issued in-line with our standard membership terms and conditions.

The club simply cannot afford to expose itself to the risk of refunds at such a financially critical time.

Without the ongoing commitment and support of our members, the club would not be in a position to continue beyond the end of this season.

What is odd about this approach is that they have acknowledged that only c4% said they would want a refund, so they actually know (and have experience from other clubs) that it would be a small minority of people wanting refunds.

Hull FC are acting like the Ryanair of the RL world here. Weasels. 

[Just Browny]

You would have thought Hull had saved a few bob from how quickly they marched Radford out of the door after the last match before lockdown kicked in.

[sweaty craiq]

10 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

You would have thought Hull had saved a few bob from how quickly they marched Radford out of the door after the last match before lockdown kicked in.

Why? Would they not be obliged to settle or pay in full.

[Just Browny]

6 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Why? Would they not be obliged to settle or pay in full.

Probably, wasn't an entirely serious point.

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

They absolutely have to - they haven't provided the service which was paid for. What form it takes and how easy it is to get at is the question, and in this case Hull FC seem to have made it more difficult than any of the other clubs who have so far announced details.

Indeed. It seems as if they are relying on people's ignorance of their rights (and they're not the only business / industry doing that in this crisis). Either that or they are hoping that fans might pass the buck onto their credit card company under S75. 

The fact that the club can't "afford" to issue refunds is frankly irrelevant. They should be offering the option. If they want to encourage fans to donate the cash or take vouchers by offering sweeteners (as other clubs and other businesses have done), then that is perfectly fine.  

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, daz39 said:

I don't believe they 'have to', unless hundreds have asked for one and a club has said get lost/tough i doubt there will be a problem.

I don't think the clubs like mine who are struggling would offer but would be happy to sort something out for individuals who ask, as i said not one fan has approached the club asking for a refund so we would be daft to offer to give thousands of pounds we didn't have away.

The CMA is unequivocal on this issue: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/cma-to-investigate-concerns-about-cancellation-policies-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic-consumer-contracts-cancellation-and-refunds

My emphasis:

Quote

Where a contract is not performed as agreed, the CMA considers that consumer protection law will generally allow consumers to obtain a refund.

In particular, for most consumer contracts the CMA would expect a consumer to be offered a full refund where:

• a business has cancelled a contract without providing any of the promised goods or services;

• no service is provided by a business, for example because this is prevented by Government public health measures;

• a consumer cancels, or is prevented from receiving any services, because Government public health measures mean they are not allowed to use the services.

• Sometimes, a consumer will already have received some of the services they have paid for in advance. In those cases, the CMA considers that the consumer would normally be entitled to at least a refund for the services that are not provided.

 

[daz39]

And they will do if people ask for one, but at Huddersfield no one has asked for one, knowing it could end the club if they were to publicly offer i'm sure our fans would be understanding.

My post was trying to say they can't refuse anyone a refund but don't have to 'offer' it.

[Dunedan]

Castleford have offered the three options other clubs have: partial refund, discount on next year's ticket or donation to the club.

While I applaud those who are donating the money to their respective clubs, I'll be asking for a discount on next year's ticket. Just giving away that kind of money isn't an option for me, sadly.

[sweaty craiq]

https://leighrl.co.uk/wp/v2/blog/2020/08/07/7th-august-2020-statement-from-owner-derek-beaumont-and-the-operational-board-on-behalf-of-leigh-centurions/?fbclid=IwAR3nri2Hh2fvSiTIHLh21DugKiCcTOqbhAvsQg9lYIjmuYM4hqC1D4nx8z0

Well under 10% and very prompt in returning it

[Whippet13]

Wigan's options are out, pretty standard donate, credit note or refund. 

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2020/08/07/kris-radlinski-confirms-options-for-season-ticket-holders/

Donate is slightly different to what I've seen elsewhere as you can donate directly to the club or redirect the money to the lotto which supports local rugby and the Wigan Acadamy.

This could have been worded better as it doesn't say which donate option is better for Wigan RL. Be useful to know which donate option is better for the club from a tax perspective or if it doesn't matter either way.

[sweaty craiq]

32 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

Wigan's options are out, pretty standard donate, credit note or refund. 

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2020/08/07/kris-radlinski-confirms-options-for-season-ticket-holders/

Donate is slightly different to what I've seen elsewhere as you can donate directly to the club or redirect the money to the lotto which supports local rugby and the Wigan Acadamy.

This could have been worded better as it doesn't say which donate option is better for Wigan RL. Be useful to know which donate option is better for the club from a tax perspective or if it doesn't matter either way.

Clubs will be using donate for any season tickets that don’t want a refund, you retain the full amount by doing so ie no vat, so if a club pays back 10% it is 10% better off

[Whippet13]

26 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Clubs will be using donate for any season tickets that don’t want a refund, you retain the full amount by doing so ie no vat, so if a club pays back 10% it is 10% better off

Good to know that, thanks.

[whatmichaelsays]

On 06/08/2020 at 12:12, daz39 said:

And they will do if people ask for one, but at Huddersfield no one has asked for one, knowing it could end the club if they were to publicly offer i'm sure our fans would be understanding.

My post was trying to say they can't refuse anyone a refund but don't have to 'offer' it.

The point is that you can't make it unduly difficult for customers to claim a refund. 

You can use, for want of a better term, positive coercion to encourage people not to take refunds (ie, perks, credits or discounts). You can't use negative coercion to discourage people from claiming refunds (ie, making it unduly difficult to claim one). This is one area where the CMA came down hard on the travel industry.

In my personal view, what Hull FC are doing is against the CMA regulations. To say "you can't have a refund and if this is a problem for you you need to give us.a number we can you back on" is not, "offering refunds" as per CMA guidance. 

Their "terms and conditions" or whether a club thinks that it can afford it is, frankly, irrelevant. 

[Dave T]

3 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

The point is that you can't make it unduly difficult for customers to claim a refund. 

You can use, for want of a better term, positive coercion to encourage people not to take refunds (ie, perks, credits or discounts). You can't use negative coercion to discourage people from claiming refunds (ie, making it unduly difficult to claim one). This is one area where the CMA came down hard on the travel industry.

In my personal view, what Hull FC are doing is against the CMA regulations. To say "you can't have a refund and if this is a problem for you you need to give us.a number we can you back on" is not, "offering refunds" as per CMA guidance. 

Their "terms and conditions" or whether a club thinks that it can afford it is, frankly, irrelevant. 

We have used a package holiday company for our family holidays this year and obviously have had some cancelled and rescheduled. They have been great and as soon as its suitable to book something we will be using them. I will absolutely be loyal to them. 

Sport already has a higher degree of loyalty, but we shouldn't take advantage of this and abuse it. 

[daz39]

They aren't making it difficult as no one is asking for one, the fans understand the financial situation the club is in and are obviously not wanting to add to that.

No one has said 'NO, you aren't having a refund get lost' and there aren't hoardes of cowbell banging frothing fartowners at Mr Thewlis' door so as far as me and the club are concerned there's no issue and if anyone does ask the club will be happy to discuss options with them.

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, daz39 said:

They aren't making it difficult as no one is asking for one, the fans understand the financial situation the club is in and are obviously not wanting to add to that.

No one has said 'NO, you aren't having a refund get lost' and there aren't hoardes of cowbell banging frothing fartowners at Mr Thewlis' door so as far as me and the club are concerned there's no issue and if anyone does ask the club will be happy to discuss options with them.

That simply won't be true. As has been quoted, it would appear c10% appears to be the amount of people asking for refunds at other clubs. 

There is no reason that your club would be any different. 

Now they may not be knocking on the door demanding one, because they expect the club to come out with the standard 3 options. 

[M j M]

58 minutes ago, Dave T said:

That simply won't be true. As has been quoted, it would appear c10% appears to be the amount of people asking for refunds at other clubs. 

There is no reason that your club would be any different. 

Now they may not be knocking on the door demanding one, because they expect the club to come out with the standard 3 options. 

Leeds have given their figure as "less than" 17%, so higher than others have been reporting.

If 16% of your customers want a refund, it's not acceptable to make that difficult, even with the numbers Huddersfield will be working with.

[Tommygilf]

I disagree with fellow fans taking refunds from a purely partisan perspective, but they should at least be offered one. 

Anything but having it openly on the table as per the options given by other clubs is an attempt to stifle that. I don't buy this "ring us and beg in exceptional circumstances" BS one bit.

[whatmichaelsays]

11 hours ago, daz39 said:

They aren't making it difficult as no one is asking for one, the fans understand the financial situation the club is in and are obviously not wanting to add to that.

No one has said 'NO, you aren't having a refund get lost' and there aren't hoardes of cowbell banging frothing fartowners at Mr Thewlis' door so as far as me and the club are concerned there's no issue and if anyone does ask the club will be happy to discuss options with them.

I was specifically referencing Hull's policy - I don't know the situation at Huddersfield. 

But the law is clear that you have to:

1 - Clearly explain to the customer their rights to a refund.

2 - Make it easy for those who want to claim a refund to claim one. 

3 - Process that refund in a timely manner. 

I don't think Hull are doing either of the first two, and their policy may even contravene three. 

They are informing fans that they aren't entitled to a refund under undefined "terms and conditions" (because how many fans have a copy of those lying around?). The terms and conditions do not superceded basic consumer protection, yet Hull are speaking either as if they do, or that those consumer protections neither exist nor apply.

They aren't making it easy for those who want to get a refund to claim one. Partly because they are misinforming fans on their rights, but mostly because they are requiring fans to leave a number to be called back on, presumably for a salesperson to call and ask why they aren't as loyal a supporter as everyone else. That's a deliberate psychological ploy to discourage refund claims from those who may want or need them.

That also potentially breaches number three. How long is someone waiting for a call back? Is it also being used as a delaying tactic?

[Griff]

43 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I was specifically referencing Hull's policy - I don't know the situation at Huddersfield. 

But the law is clear that you have to:

1 - Clearly explain to the customer their rights to a refund.

2 - Make it easy for those who want to claim a refund to claim one. 

3 - Process that refund in a timely manner. 

I agree.  Though it'll probably need a complaint to trading standards to get something done.

From a VAT point of view, refunds need to be offered and waived if VAT is to be reclaimed.  Mere hanging on to an unclaimed refund is unlikely to be enough for the VATmen.  Just saying.......

[sweaty craiq]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

I agree.  Though it'll probably need a complaint to trading standards to get something done.

From a VAT point of view, refunds need to be offered and waived if VAT is to be reclaimed.  Mere hanging on to an unclaimed refund is unlikely to be enough for the VATmen.  Just saying.......

Simple paper shuffle.

 

[daz39]

As there is still a chance of games being played in front of a crowd and our season ticket pricing meaning  our fans MAY still get value for their money why would we offer a refund? the competition isn't cancelled and we don't offer them every other year.

Surely the 'law' applies if the club can't offer the services paid for and as it stands currently they 'maybe' able to?.

 

Either way i and most of the Giants fans i've spoken to and read have no intention of taking much needed money off the club at a great time of need for them.

[M j M]

16 minutes ago, daz39 said:

As there is still a chance of games being played in front of a crowd and our season ticket pricing meaning  our fans MAY still get value for their money why would we offer a refund? the competition isn't cancelled and we don't offer them every other year.

Surely the 'law' applies if the club can't offer the services paid for and as it stands currently they 'maybe' able to?.

 

The law is very clear about partial provision of fully-paid services - a pro-rata refund is needs to be offered.

As you say, the large majority of fans will not request one - that should make complying with the law pretty straightforward, I can't see why this is a problem for some clubs, or why anyone would seek to defend them.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

Simple paper shuffle.

It's not my problem.