Private Equity

[Pulga]

41 minutes ago, Man of Kent said:

Sorry but we don’t have a caste system in England and, if I may say so, it’s rather arrogant of you to claim to know my country better than I do.

I definitely don't want to proclaim I know more than you.

From my outside view and interactions it certainly seems the case.

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

16 minutes ago, Pulga said:

I definitely don't want to proclaim I know more than you.

From my outside view and interactions it certainly seems the case.

It is.

[DoubleD]

2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Selling the game to a private equity firm is about as good an idea as getting a pay day loan. It’ll get you a lump of cash now and take forever to pay for it. Terrible idea.

Private equity are only going to get involved if they can get more money out than they put in, why would we want that?

The argument would be that they would facilitate the moves to put us in that position - presumably by commercialising the sport, through their influence and greater network. 
If they have the reach and ability to do so, then I don’t think it should be dismissed out of hand. But the devil will be in the detail. And it is an important question in relation to who would buy their stake when they look to sell. 

[Man of Kent]

59 minutes ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

It is.

It’s not. We have a stratified society with class divisions - less so than in the Victorian era - but so does every nation.

I’m sure Pulga would take offence if an Englishman suggested the Aussie RL fraternity is a ‘caste’. Of bogans.....

[Blind side johnny]

3 hours ago, Man of Kent said:

Caste and class are very different. 

As are semantry and pedantry.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

It is.

What caste system is there in England? I’ve been here most of my life and have never heard of one?

[The Rocket]

4 hours ago, EastLondonMike said:

I don't have a problem with this kind of investment in theory, though am a bit naturally weary of such things, especially where RL is concearned, who have never shown any previous experience of handing such things well. Like V'landys says in that article, the devil is in the detail.

but it would be foolish to dismiss any proposals out of hand without properly consulting. 

The response of the QLD seems to be the classic RL response of forming a passionate opinion of something without fully understanding what's on offer. And going to the press..

Your last paragraph is depressingly accurate.  

The question that interests me is how a PE Firm would generate an increase on the value of their investment in Rugby League so that they could make a profit if they sold , and we have to remember we are talking about a, perhaps 20% share, or demand a return on their investment on an annual basis.

The only way  that I could see this happening would be by increasing the value of Rugby Leagues greatest asset, which would have to be their Broadcast Deal. So how do you increase the value of a broadcast deal ? Well you have to increase the popularity of the game in existing markets or expand into new markets. 

So an investor, in a southern hemisphere scenario, came in and said we want to set up a team in Perth and Wellington (NZ), now with cooperation from RL Board, and remembering they would have representatives on that board, they would get the same funding as the other clubs, plus they get the investment from the PE Firm. If like Melbourne it became a success both on and off the field, then the NRL benefits from a much wider market to sell to sponsors and broadcasters and the value of the entity goes up.

So if the League doesn`t have the spare cash to risk on this type of venture but a PE Firm has and they consider it a potentially viable proposition, why wouldn`t you consider this?

 

 

 

 

[M j M]

11 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Your last paragraph is depressingly accurate.  

The question that interests me is how a PE Firm would generate an increase on the value of their investment in Rugby League so that they could make a profit if they sold , and we have to remember we are talking about a, perhaps 20% share, or demand a return on their investment on an annual basis.

The only way  that I could see this happening would be by increasing the value of Rugby Leagues greatest asset, which would have to be their Broadcast Deal. So how do you increase the value of a broadcast deal ? Well you have to increase the popularity of the game in existing markets or expand into new markets. 

So an investor, in a southern hemisphere scenario, came in and said we want to set up a team in Perth and Wellington (NZ), now with cooperation from RL Board, and remembering they would have representatives on that board, they would get the same funding as the other clubs, plus they get the investment from the PE Firm. If like Melbourne it became a success both on and off the field, then the NRL benefits from a much wider market to sell to sponsors and broadcasters and the value of the entity goes up.

So if the League doesn`t have the spare cash to risk on this type of venture but a PE Firm has and they consider it a potentially viable proposition, why wouldn`t you consider this?

That's different to selling a stake in the league which is the proposal as we are led to believe and which I think would be near madness.

[The Rocket]

3 minutes ago, M j M said:

That's different to selling a stake in the league which is the proposal as we are led to believe and which I think would be near madness.

Do you think it is a viable option?

That`s what I can`t get my head around. What would the NRL do with $300m. I read that an afl club has an interest in Aged Care Facilities, but if PE wanted to do that they would invest directly in Aged Care. The only advantage would be if you could leverage the name of the club or sport to increase the value of that investment. An outlandish example maybe a Rugby League Theme Park ,but I am sure there are better examples .

[unapologetic pedant]

5 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Do you think it is a viable option?

That`s what I can`t get my head around. What would the NRL do with $300m. I read that an afl club has an interest in Aged Care Facilities, but if PE wanted to do that they would invest directly in Aged Care. The only advantage would be if you could leverage the name of the club or sport to increase the value of that investment. An outlandish example maybe a Rugby League Theme Park ,but I am sure there are better examples .

You`ve mentioned London Broncos as potentially benefitting from PE.

The problem in London (by no means unique in this) is that there are very few people who have sufficient knowledge of the game on the field, to be able to know how to watch and therefore enjoy a game. How will PE change that? Will they be willing to take years, patiently investing at ground level, to build a fanbase?

Growth of RL in UK will never happen top-down. The media coverage is too dire. If PE investors divert money away from grass roots to fund promotion at elite level (which will probably mean emphasis on action, big hits, handbags, off-field froth and flummery), the result long-term will be a shrunken fanbase.

[Smudger06]

An example of how this might work. 

$600m AUD for 20%. 

ARLC could be extended to 10 members, 2 of which appointed and controlled by PE Firm. (20%) 

If Clubs are awarded grants then PE Firm will want their own grant, which would represent their annual return on investment. For example they may insist on Standard Individual Club Grant x 3 or x 4. If it takes them 12 years to recoup their total investment, they could then look at selling their stake or keeping it an continue to see an annual profit from the investment. They could sell at any time from year 1 to year 25 if they see an opportunity to profit greatly on their initial investment (buy in) 

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

5 hours ago, Eddie said:

What caste system is there in England? I’ve been here most of my life and have never heard of one?

For me, a class system has a certain degree of mobility (screw up and you're out), a caste system is when you or an ancestor's in you're on of the boys (cos it is mostly boys) virtually for ever. The Oxford English dictionary gives one definition as 'any more or less exclusive social class'. Just my take on the subject.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

For me, a class system has a certain degree of mobility (screw up and you're out), a caste system is when you or an ancestor's in you're on of the boys (cos it is mostly boys) virtually for ever. The Oxford English dictionary gives one definition as 'any more or less exclusive social class'. Just my take on the subject.

So do you think there’s a caste system in England or not?

[Pulga]

3 hours ago, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

For me, a class system has a certain degree of mobility (screw up and you're out), a caste system is when you or an ancestor's in you're on of the boys (cos it is mostly boys) virtually for ever. The Oxford English dictionary gives one definition as 'any more or less exclusive social class'. Just my take on the subject.

The incident of the MP being kicked out of rugby union for life for partaking of the ceremonial first kick-off of the season in a rugby league game comes to mind...

[Chronicler of Chiswick]

13 hours ago, Eddie said:

So do you think there’s a caste system in England or not?

Yes.

[The Rocket]

17 hours ago, Smudger06 said:

An example of how this might work. 

$600m AUD for 20%. 

ARLC could be extended to 10 members, 2 of which appointed and controlled by PE Firm. (20%) 

If Clubs are awarded grants then PE Firm will want their own grant, which would represent their annual return on investment. For example they may insist on Standard Individual Club Grant x 3 or x 4. If it takes them 12 years to recoup their total investment, they could then look at selling their stake or keeping it an continue to see an annual profit from the investment. They could sell at any time from year 1 to year 25 if they see an opportunity to profit greatly on their initial investment (buy in) 

Given that returns on cash and bonds is lucky to break 1-2 %, a PE firm may well be happy with that sort of return especially if they see some sort of capital gain on their initial outlay. There is a lot of money sloshing around in the world at the moment that is earning ###### all. And it is growing every day.

Those with knowledge of CVC Capital Partners purchase of minority stakes in Premiership Rugby and Top14 competition and bids for other pieces of other rugby property, such as Six Nations and British and Irish Lions believe the company would look to bundle the NRL into a one-stop "Netflix of Rugby" which could vastly increase the broadcast rights fees  RL could generate from international markets.

I find that fascinating that they could see a premium product like top level RL being bundled with top level Union, and all those Union loving eyeballs being exposed to top quality league. I am talking about those countries especially that have no exposure to League, the South Africa`s, France, Japan etc.

 

 

 

[The Rocket]

On 10/08/2020 at 00:52, unapologetic pedant said:

You`ve mentioned London Broncos as potentially benefitting from PE.

The problem in London (by no means unique in this) is that there are very few people who have sufficient knowledge of the game on the field, to be able to know how to watch and therefore enjoy a game. How will PE change that? Will they be willing to take years, patiently investing at ground level, to build a fanbase?

Growth of RL in UK will never happen top-down. The media coverage is too dire. If PE investors divert money away from grass roots to fund promotion at elite level (which will probably mean emphasis on action, big hits, handbags, off-field froth and flummery), the result long-term will be a shrunken fanbase.

Melbourne contradicts everything above.

I can remember very clearly the complaints of League fans in Victoria when the Storm started. 1/2 a column 8 pages back in the paper. 7 pages solid afl and similar to this day. Replace afl with football in London.

Storm for a long time were pulling about 5 or 6000 fans per game maybe 8000 for a big match. My wife and I flew down in 1999 to watch the Dragons towel them up in the preliminary final at the old Olympic Park which was a very modest venue . Probably about 8-10 000 that day.

The Storm initially had a very committed backer in News Corp who tipped in the extra money so that they always had a competitive team. With success followed the corporates, News bailed corporates stepped in and the club is an outstanding success story off field.

Two things give me optimism about London from afar. London and the south of England  produce plenty of Super League quality players and also as BedforeShire Broncos has stated and is backed up by the figures when they win the crowds start to grow. But they need to continue to win, as BB said a few quarter/semi final appearances,  a bit of a run in the CC, top 4  top 6 finishes.

Seems to me whoever is putting money into the Broncos is only putting in enough to survive and they obviously need a bit more than that. PE might provide that 10 years of proper funding to turn them into a Brisbane Broncos.

 

 

 

[unapologetic pedant]

7 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Melbourne contradicts everything above.

I can remember very clearly the complaints of League fans in Victoria when the Storm started. 1/2 a column 8 pages back in the paper. 7 pages solid afl and similar to this day. Replace afl with football in London.

Storm for a long time were pulling about 5 or 6000 fans per game maybe 8000 for a big match. My wife and I flew down in 1999 to watch the Dragons towel them up in the preliminary final at the old Olympic Park which was a very modest venue . Probably about 8-10 000 that day.

The Storm initially had a very committed backer in News Corp who tipped in the extra money so that they always had a competitive team. With success followed the corporates, News bailed corporates stepped in and the club is an outstanding success story off field.

Two things give me optimism about London from afar. London and the south of England  produce plenty of Super League quality players and also as BedforeShire Broncos has stated and is backed up by the figures when they win the crowds start to grow. But they need to continue to win, as BB said a few quarter/semi final appearances,  a bit of a run in the CC, top 4  top 6 finishes.

Seems to me whoever is putting money into the Broncos is only putting in enough to survive and they obviously need a bit more than that. PE might provide that 10 years of proper funding to turn them into a Brisbane Broncos.

 

 

 

Being associated with NSW and QLD in Australia is markedly different from being associated with the North of England in the UK. London have been going in some form or other for 40 years. Still the image of RL in the capital is of "that Northern thing". This can only change from the bottom up. A sizeable section of the populace there would have to embrace the game at grass roots and make it their own.

It doesn`t have to be just Tackle RL. There are thousands of Tag RL players in London and the South-East. Except they call it "Tag Rugby". Any connections they have with Tackle are far more likely to be with RU. If all those Tag players had operated out of RL clubs which had an affiliation, and constant interaction, with the Broncos, that would have afforded a better chance of growing a fanbase than anything top-down.

When the Broncos were last in SL, the crowds at their home games were still predominantly away fans. Which reinforces the perception of RL in London as the North comes to town.

Don`t underestimate the role of grass roots RL growth in Vic to the sustained success of the Storm. 30 years ago the local competitions were pretty threadbare. Much stronger now, with Tackle and Tag integrated in the clubs. Some of the Storm`s fans will be Tag RL players, who will also bring along family and friends.

 

[The Rocket]

20 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Don`t underestimate the role of grass roots RL growth in Vic to the sustained success of the Storm. 30 years ago the local competitions were pretty threadbare. Much stronger now, with Tackle and Tag integrated in the clubs. Some of the Storm`s fans will be Tag RL players, who will also bring along family and friends.

I searched high and low for participation rates and numbers but only found vague statements about year on year growth etc. If they are integrating Touch/Tag brilliant. The common refrain from Victorians is that League is a game played by Kiwi ex-pats and Islanders.

I don`t want to get into an argument but probably my main point regards the Storm is that despite being the second highest rating team on both FTA and Pay TV they still rate poorly in Victoria. Their value to the NRL lies in the fact they are a successful team and people in League loving areas will tune into watch them play their team. Sponsors will back them because of this. The London Broncos supporters I have quizzed over this believe a similar scenario could apply to them. 

We have discussed before integrating Touch/Tag competitions with Clubs , an obvious no-brainer. Grass roots can`t be that bad if they produce so many SL quality players. This gives an existing base to build on if like the Storm they can provide success at the top and attract eyeballs when playing other teams.

I`ll leave it at that , I`ve said my piece. By the way I am going to start referring to you as Pepe after the way so brilliantly captured the  Joie de vivre of French RL commentators in a recent post.

 

 

[fighting irish]

5 hours ago, The Rocket said:

By the way I am going to start referring to you as Pepe after the way so brilliantly captured the  Joie de vivre of French RL commentators in a recent post.

 

 

I prefer ''Youpee'' after one of my recent posts. 

[FearTheVee]

On 09/08/2020 at 09:17, Pulga said:

I definitely don't want to proclaim I know more than you.

From my outside view and interactions it certainly seems the case.

There is class prejudice, there is not a caste system

[dboy]

On 10/08/2020 at 09:41, Chronicler of Chiswick said:

Yes.

You think people are born into a caste, there to stay for their lifetime, and will then be promoted to the next caste upon their rebirth???

[Pulga]

7 hours ago, dboy said:

You think people are born into a caste, there to stay for their lifetime, and will then be promoted to the next caste upon their rebirth???

Depends if they're reincarnated into a union family I guess.

[dboy]

1 hour ago, Pulga said:

Depends if they're reincarnated into a union family I guess.

I may be missing your point - are you suggesting a person will be born to an underclass "league" caste, to die and live their next life in a higher "union" caste???

Surely your skills would get better the longer you had at it?

[ATLANTISMAN]

13 hours ago, The Rocket said:

I searched high and low for participation rates and numbers but only found vague statements about year on year growth etc. If they are integrating Touch/Tag brilliant. The common refrain from Victorians is that League is a game played by Kiwi ex-pats and Islanders.

I don`t want to get into an argument but probably my main point regards the Storm is that despite being the second highest rating team on both FTA and Pay TV they still rate poorly in Victoria. Their value to the NRL lies in the fact they are a successful team and people in League loving areas will tune into watch them play their team. Sponsors will back them because of this. The London Broncos supporters I have quizzed over this believe a similar scenario could apply to them. 

We have discussed before integrating Touch/Tag competitions with Clubs , an obvious no-brainer. Grass roots can`t be that bad if they produce so many SL quality players. This gives an existing base to build on if like the Storm they can provide success at the top and attract eyeballs when playing other teams.

I`ll leave it at that , I`ve said my piece. By the way I am going to start referring to you as Pepe after the way so brilliantly captured the  Joie de vivre of French RL commentators in a recent post.

 

 

LONDON CAN WORK just needs a real dedicated marketing team that know what they are doing 

 

P