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2 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

Since 2013, the RFL have paid £2.4 million to 7 teams in southern England/south Wales to run semi-pro rugby. Of those, 3 don't exist any more and one (WWR) relocated to a small town miles from the Welsh community game and get a record hammering every week. Few embedded themselves as attractive spectator attractions, the point of semi pro rugby. Only Skolars, and perhaps to an extent Coventry have been a sucessful part of the player pathway. 

Perhaps because of the game's history, people seem to think that pro teams with paying spectators are the only measure of success. They're not, in most places it's pins in the map in small towns with no connection to RL and destined for failure. 

What could of course work is if that £2.4 mn had been spent on setting up deep community networks in 2 or 3 larger areas - for instance south London, Bristol, and certainty Coventry/WMidlands - triggering a rise in young people playing rugby league. 

It is not anti expansion to question if L1 serves a useful purpose, it's actually right to question if L1 is the best way to grow the game outside the heartland. 

I’m not sure that I agree that you should be questioning League One, I’d argue that you should question The RFL. 

The RFL for a brief period seemed intent on admitting teams to League One from expansion areas, which is fine. But that’s as far as it went. There was no foresight, there was no plan, there was no strategy, there was no end goal of what they wanted from these teams or from League One in five, ten or fifteen years. And herein lay the problem. There was no plan so there was no grants or funding to be spent on developing coaches and players, no money ringfenced for development coaches in these places and no help. The clubs were pretty much left to their own devices as soon as they were admitted to the competition. 

Much like pretty much all expansion sides that have ever played the game at “professional” level, they’re almost set up to fail from the start because there is no plan. I’d argue that Ottawa will be the same. Without wanting to knock these clubs but what does The RFL want from West Wales Raiders, for example? Do they want more Regan Grace’s, Ben Flower’s, Elliot Kear’s etc? If so, are they doing anything to help create an Academy, similar to the successful yet short-lived Celtic Crusaders one? 

 

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2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

On the contrary - it's basic maths.

Hemel, All Golds and Oxford were all in L1 for 5 years each. That's 15 years x £75k central funding = £1,125,000

Coventry have been in L1 for 6 years. That equates to £450k

West Wales and their previous incarnations have been playing at that level for 11 years. I don't know what the funding used to be, but we operate on the principle that it's been £75k per year then that equates to £825k

Skolars have been playing at that level since 2003, so 17 x £75k = £1,275,000

North Wales have been playing at that level for 9 years, so 9 x £75k = £675k

That all adds up to £4,350,000. Now I know these figures aren't necessarily going to be 100% accurate, but for you to claim it's "complete fantasy" is incorrect. Even if that figure is overestimated by double, we're still talking a huge sum of money for the game. IMO it's been spread too thinly and there isn't enough to show for that investment. I would much rather they'd have targeted specific areas and invested properly in developing a more sustainable infrastructure for the game. Are you happy with the current return on that investment?

Fascinating. Presumably those figures are also true, and indeed higher, for the contracting and failing heartlands clubs who can't even keep hold of their own grounds, whose areas are seeing fewer clubs, and whose ability to attract supporters from across their communities has been shown to be abject?

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'd dispute how viable these clubs are without central funding. Any of them TBH. We've seen this year the majority can't afford a restart even with the prospect of prize money. That's not a criticism of them, that appears to be the reality. And the M62 ecosystem seems a bit ... how to be kind about this ... absolutely and totally failing to bring on significant new numbers of participants and supporters.

I agree. This may sound harsh, but, for example, what do Rochdale Hornets bring to the game for that huge investment that Rochdale Mayfield don't? 

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Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure that I agree that you should be questioning League One, I’d argue that you should question The RFL. 

The RFL for a brief period seemed intent on admitting teams to League One from expansion areas, which is fine. But that’s as far as it went. There was no foresight, there was no plan, there was no strategy, there was no end goal of what they wanted from these teams or from League One in five, ten or fifteen years. And herein lay the problem. There was no plan so there was no grants or funding to be spent on developing coaches and players, no money ringfenced for development coaches in these places and no help. The clubs were pretty much left to their own devices as soon as they were admitted to the competition. 

Much like pretty much all expansion sides that have ever played the game at “professional” level, they’re almost set up to fail from the start because there is no plan. I’d argue that Ottawa will be the same. Without wanting to knock these clubs but what does The RFL want from West Wales Raiders, for example? Do they want more Regan Grace’s, Ben Flower’s, Elliot Kear’s etc? If so, are they doing anything to help create an Academy, similar to the successful yet short-lived Celtic Crusaders one? 

 

League One is the embers of what was a tremendously exciting period that saw the RFL promise a huge amount with National League Three but then fail to deliver on those promises.

I'm honestly not sure where we as a game go from here but deliberately making it impossible for clubs to continue just because they're a bit far away from the M62 doesn't sound like a great idea to me.

But, still, I'm told that reviving the Great Britain team will ensure a great future for the game so I'm looking forward to that.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I agree. This may sound harsh, but, for example, what do Rochdale Hornets bring to the game for that huge investment that Rochdale Mayfield don't? 

We agree it needs questioning. We disagree that shutting or punishing clubs because of dubious reasons is the right way forward. And we very much disagree that the sums we're talking about are 'huge'.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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3 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Fascinating. Presumably those figures are also true, and indeed higher, for the contracting and failing heartlands clubs who can't even keep hold of their own grounds, whose areas are seeing fewer clubs, and whose ability to attract supporters from across their communities has been shown to be abject?

Quite possibly. I would ask the question that if the disappearance of £75k per season means that some of those clubs completely disappear as a result, then what infrastructure do they actually have?

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3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure that I agree that you should be questioning League One, I’d argue that you should question The RFL. 

The RFL for a brief period seemed intent on admitting teams to League One from expansion areas, which is fine. But that’s as far as it went. There was no foresight, there was no plan, there was no strategy, there was no end goal of what they wanted from these teams or from League One in five, ten or fifteen years. And herein lay the problem. There was no plan so there was no grants or funding to be spent on developing coaches and players, no money ringfenced for development coaches in these places and no help. The clubs were pretty much left to their own devices as soon as they were admitted to the competition. 

Much like pretty much all expansion sides that have ever played the game at “professional” level, they’re almost set up to fail from the start because there is no plan. I’d argue that Ottawa will be the same. Without wanting to knock these clubs but what does The RFL want from West Wales Raiders, for example? Do they want more Regan Grace’s, Ben Flower’s, Elliot Kear’s etc? If so, are they doing anything to help create an Academy, similar to the successful yet short-lived Celtic Crusaders one? 

 

I agree with all of that. And if, say, the L1 funding is halved after 2021 (which I hope doesn't happen but we need to plan for the worst) then the scenario you raise becomes even more acute. 

In that secanario, focussing the money in the south on development, rather than paying players become even more pressing. As I've said elsewhere, it's just a fact of life that clubs like Keighley and Workington can tap into a spectator culture more readily, so might be able to survive a restructuring as semi pro. 

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5 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We agree it needs questioning. We disagree that shutting or punishing clubs because of dubious reasons is the right way forward. And we very much disagree that the sums we're talking about are 'huge'.

Do you not think that several million pounds is a huge sum for the game?

Also, I'm not sure where I've advocated "shutting or punishing" any clubs.

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Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Do you not think that several million pounds is a huge sum for the game?

Over the better part of a decade? No.

It's a higher proportion of the money available than it should be, but that's because we're a poor sport that constantly undersells ourselves.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Over the better part of a decade? No.

It's a higher proportion of the money available than it should be, but that's because we're a poor sport that constantly undersells ourselves.

That's fair enough - we can agree to disagree on that one. For me, I think the game would have seen a far higher return had that investment been targeted more strategically and not just spent on bunging players a few quid.

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Just now, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

That's fair enough - we can agree to disagree on that one. For me, I think the game would have seen a far higher return had that investment been targeted more strategically and not just spent on bunging players a few quid.

We do also agree that the cutting of development officers by the RFL has seen untold damage to the sport. I just don't think it's an either/or. You also need visible expansion alongside development.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

We do also agree that the cutting of development officers by the RFL has seen untold damage to the sport. I just don't think it's an either/or. You also need visible expansion alongside development.

I agree with that as well. But I'm not sure that the visible expansion necessarily has to involve paying clubs 75K that they fritter away on players. 

You mentioned the old National League 3 earlier. For me, that was a far better vehicle for development than seeing teams from expansion areas getting spanked in L1. It was a high profile competition, given plenty of column inches in the press, but had nowhere near £75k per team spent on it. Perhaps more importantly, the public perception of that competition was positive as well. There's absolutely no reason IMO why they couldn't run a similar competition now. Coventry Bears won that one year if my memory serves correct. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

I’m not sure that I agree that you should be questioning League One, I’d argue that you should question The RFL. 

But the RFL operate League One, so the two are inter-linked

23 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

The RFL for a brief period seemed intent on admitting teams to League One from expansion areas, which is fine. But that’s as far as it went. There was no foresight, there was no plan, there was no strategy, there was no end goal of what they wanted from these teams or from League One in five, ten or fifteen years. And herein lay the problem. There was no plan so there was no grants or funding to be spent on developing coaches and players, no money ringfenced for development coaches in these places and no help. The clubs were pretty much left to their own devices as soon as they were admitted to the competition. 

Much like pretty much all expansion sides that have ever played the game at “professional” level, they’re almost set up to fail from the start because there is no plan. I’d argue that Ottawa will be the same. Without wanting to knock these clubs but what does The RFL want from West Wales Raiders, for example? Do they want more Regan Grace’s, Ben Flower’s, Elliot Kear’s etc? If so, are they doing anything to help create an Academy, similar to the successful yet short-lived Celtic Crusaders one? 

Completely agree

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3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I agree with that as well. But I'm not sure that the visible expansion necessarily has to involve paying clubs 75K that they fritter away on players. 

You mentioned the old National League 3 earlier. For me, that was a far better vehicle for development than seeing teams from expansion areas getting spanked in L1. It was a high profile competition, given plenty of column inches in the press, but had nowhere near £75k per team spent on it. Perhaps more importantly, the public perception of that competition was positive as well. There's absolutely no reason IMO why they couldn't run a similar competition now. Coventry Bears won that one year if my memory serves correct. 

 

Why are you so against the “frittering away” of £75k by expansion teams and not a very high percentage of lower league clubs, who do little themselves to grow the game?

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9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Why are you so against the “frittering away” of £75k by expansion teams and not a very high percentage of lower league clubs, who do little themselves to grow the game?

You seem to have it in your head that I hold a diametrically opposed viewpoint to yourself, and are projecting arguments on to me. Go back and properly read what I've said about other lower league clubs on this thread if you want to see my opinion on it. Or alternatively just continue projecting whatever arguments you want. That just makes it very difficult to have any sort of discussion if you cherry pick bits of arguments and then construct the rest of it in your head.

 

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3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

You seem to have it in your head that I hold a diametrically opposed viewpoint to yourself, and are projecting arguments on to me. Go back and properly read what I've said about other lower league clubs on this thread if you want to see my opinion on it. Or alternatively just continue projecting whatever arguments you want. That just makes it very difficult to have any sort of discussion if you cherry pick bits of arguments and then construct the rest of it in your head.

 

Good avoidance. 

You have cited a figure, made up I must add, of central funding received by clubs in areas that aren’t in the north and are arguing that this money could be better spent elsewhere and not “frittered on wages” by expansion clubs, as you put it. 

Why aren’t you looking at, say, Rochdale Hornets, Hunslet, Oldham and let’s say the three Cumbrian sides? All of these clubs, let’s be honest, do nothing for player development, they have no academies or pathways and are in places which already have amateur clubs (in some cases more than one) that are producing players. Should they receive their £75k?

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3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Good avoidance. 

You have cited a figure, made up I must add, of central funding received by clubs in areas that aren’t in the north and are arguing that this money could be better spent elsewhere and not “frittered on wages” by expansion clubs, as you put it. 

Why aren’t you looking at, say, Rochdale Hornets, Hunslet, Oldham and let’s say the three Cumbrian sides? All of these clubs, let’s be honest, do nothing for player development, they have no academies or pathways and are in places which already have amateur clubs (in some cases more than one) that are producing players. Should they receive their £75k?

If you're not going to bother reading posts then you must have zero interest in actually engaging properly in a discussion. I presume you're just trolling and looking for an argument.

Funny you mention Rochdale Hornets, because so did I. Just slightly earlier in this thread.

56 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I agree. This may sound harsh, but, for example, what do Rochdale Hornets bring to the game for that huge investment that Rochdale Mayfield don't? 

 

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1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

If you're not going to bother reading posts then you must have zero interest in actually engaging properly in a discussion. I presume you're just trolling and looking for an argument.

Funny you mention Rochdale Hornets, because so did I. Just slightly earlier in this thread.

 

More avoidance.

So why are you so against expansion clubs “frittering away” their money on wages?

 

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If the RFL had kept the league 1 in the original format ie Development league, and allowed 1 new team a season if possible with promotion to Championship, this way teams who are stronger can progress. Make S/L a larger league by 2 then allowing 2 extra teams into Championship. Just an idea.

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On 05/08/2020 at 18:24, Oldbear said:

Traditionally yes, but times change, there’s no reason to believe that the next superstars couldn’t come from somewhere else, however if you don’t even try to develop youngsters in other parts of the country then it sure as hell won’t and the game will continue to shrink. This is the bit I have never understood about some heartland fans, expansion is bad because it threatens the heartland in some strange way, instead of welcoming the right form of expansion. I don’t believe in sticking pins in maps either, but if someone is prepared to have a go at proper, sustainable expansion, building with a solid foundation then why not.

I'm very big on development around the country, we missed the boat a few years ago when the RFL pulled the plug on development officers

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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On 06/08/2020 at 12:03, newbe said:

If the RFL had kept the league 1 in the original format ie Development league, and allowed 1 new team a season if possible with promotion to Championship, this way teams who are stronger can progress. Make S/L a larger league by 2 then allowing 2 extra teams into Championship. Just an idea.

So are you saying that every year we promote a new club even if they haven't won the rights on the park ?

Carlsberg don't do Soldiers, but if they did, they would probably be Brits.

http://www.pitchero....hornemarauders/

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On 06/08/2020 at 11:40, Hela Wigmen said:

Good avoidance. 

You have cited a figure, made up I must add, of central funding received by clubs in areas that aren’t in the north and are arguing that this money could be better spent elsewhere and not “frittered on wages” by expansion clubs, as you put it. 

Why aren’t you looking at, say, Rochdale Hornets, Hunslet, Oldham and let’s say the three Cumbrian sides? All of these clubs, let’s be honest, do nothing for player development, they have no academies or pathways and are in places which already have amateur clubs (in some cases more than one) that are producing players. Should they receive their £75k?

" and let's say the three cumbria clubs " 😂😂😂 have a look how many players Cumbria have produced over the years! Ridiculous comment!!

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