Newcastle Thunder attempt to buy and replace Toronto in SL

[Whippet13]

15 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

The utter contempt shown by some people towards clubs trying to do the right thing but just happen to be in the 'wrong' part of the world is really distasteful and typical of rugby league. We are staring at the rubble of yet another disaster of an experiment and the answer seems to be to spit on those who have built and want to progress.

There are probably 4 teams currently able/willing/deserving to step up to take Toronto's place whether people like that or not. They are Toulouse, London, Featherstone and Leigh. All have various pros and cons and sure, if all you care about is having a team not from Yorkshire or Lancashire then the first two would be attractive but to constantly talk down to the other two, who have both done a lot of great work on and off the field, doesn't help anyone. 

People can trot out fantasies about Newcastle all they like, the fact is they are on the right path but have some building to do. We have had a failed experiment in that region already, I was there at the time and it was too much, too soon without the requisite planning which led to yet another of the sport's great farces, the Hull merger. They should continue on this path and build to being a top Championship team then when they are ready I'm sure they would be a great addition. Buying this Toronto 'License' sounds like a ridiculous idea which will gain them nothing.

It depends on your perspective, some people think any club outside of Lancashire and Yorkshire are in the wrong part of the world, hold them in contempt and spit on them. Even today you can find at least one post on this forum wanting a financially strong and stable Catalans thrown out of Super League. You talk about the rubble of yet another disaster, but half of those occured because the sport did not support them properly as developing organisations.

I agree you raise valid points, but it's not a simple case of black and white.

[Stuff Smith]

5 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

I agree you raise valid points, but it's not a simple case of black and white.

Is that a Hull FC reference?

[Tex Evans Thigh]

5 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

It depends on your perspective, some people think any club outside of Lancashire and Yorkshire are in the wrong part of the world, hold them in contempt and spit on them. Even today you can find at least one post on this forum wanting a financially strong and stable Catalans thrown out of Super League. You talk about the rubble of yet another disaster, but half of those occured because the sport did not support them properly as developing organisations.

I agree you raise valid points, but it's not a simple case of black and white.

Yes it goes both ways, I agree. I was looking specifically at this thread in honesty where certain people think its fine to mock any club with ambition.

I think the contempt of those from the 'heartlands' towards 'expansion' clubs is driven out of perceived favouritism. I'm not sure there is much favouritism and I agree there is some bile in the other direction which doesn't help. I don't see much ill will towards Catalans to be honest but I guess there's always one or two idiots.

Where I have to disagree is that it isn't black and white. We have another disaster - this isn't up for debate. I've argued tooth and nail with fans of my club about the positive aspects of Toronto and what they bring to the game, I've been hammered for it but stood my ground because I'm a RL fan. I now have egg on my face and have to acknowledge I was wrong and I need to re-evaluate what is actually good for the sport.

The sport as had no successful expansion projects. Catalans are a RL heartlands team, as are Toulouse. London could potentially be argued as a good example if only for the grass roots work that has been done but the reality is they play in a park in front of 500 fans. They do none of the 'raising the profile' that people think they do, it's a fantasy. The reasons for our constant failures are surely complex, yes, but the fact is we have another disaster. The point of the thread was to look at Newcastle. We've had a disaster there before but yet people want to fast track them based on them being in another part of the country and having a good set-up. I'm merely pointing out the folly of that approach.

As I said, we have 4 clubs in a position to step up in my opinion. The sensible thing for the sport to do would be treat them all fairly and with the same scrutiny if one of them is to take Toronto's place.

[sweaty craiq]

There is more than one deal on the table to take the TW licence if they fold, one I am familiar with guarantees full cap spend in 2021 without the extra SL money.

[Oldbear]

7 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:The point of the thread was to look at Newcastle. We've had a disaster there before but yet people want to fast track them based on them being in another part of the country and having a good set-up. I'm merely pointing out the folly of that approach.

As I said, we have 4 clubs in a position to step up in my opinion. The sensible thing for the sport to do would be treat them all fairly and with the same scrutiny if one of them is to take Toronto's place.

I don’t disagree with you, I have already said that although I want Newcastle in SL, I want them to earn it the proper way, that is to say on the field. I find the whole bidding for Toronto’s spot by any team more than a little disturbing, since it smells of teams making a panic move, afraid that licensing is coming back and they will be on the outside looking in. I also agree that there are only 4 realistic candidates for the spot, I just wish there were a way they could fight it out on the field, as choosing one by another means is only going to lead to legal wrangling and bad blood between clubs.

[Hela Wigmen]

8 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

 

As I said, we have 4 clubs in a position to step up in my opinion. The sensible thing for the sport to do would be treat them all fairly and with the same scrutiny if one of them is to take Toronto's place.

If your holding the financial difficulties of Gateshead Thunder in 1999 against the Newcastle club now, you must hold London Broncos accountable for their 2013 administration and Leigh for financial difficulties in 2009 and 2018. 

[Lowdesert]

8 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

There is more than one deal on the table to take the TW licence if they fold, one I am familiar with guarantees full cap spend in 2021 without the extra SL money.

Which one is this?

According the aptly named, Bob Hunter, it is Newcastle and New York, with New York progressed furthest.  I forget the exact time frame mentioned to then agree full terms but it was in a few days.  I'll see if I can find the piece.

I think there have been discussions with other parties in NA but Hunter said New York was the most progressed.

[Lowdesert]

9 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

It depends on your perspective, some people think any club outside of Lancashire and Yorkshire are in the wrong part of the world, hold them in contempt and spit on them. Even today you can find at least one post on this forum wanting a financially strong and stable Catalans thrown out of Super League. You talk about the rubble of yet another disaster, but half of those occured because the sport did not support them properly as developing organisations.

I agree you raise valid points, but it's not a simple case of black and white.

Catalans will most probably be the most stable amongst them.  

[LeeF]

10 hours ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Far as I'm concerned every penny they have ever had looking at where they are today still only getting 1000 fans watching them after 40 years, better off concentrating on cumbrian clubs.

Why?

[GeordieSaint]

12 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Why?

Tradition of course!! 

But people tend to forget London in the late 90s especially would get really positive crowds; better than quite a few traditional sides. They then flipped locations once to often AND decided to focus on developing their own players/buying British* and the team and crowds suffered for it...

* I may add this was due to criticism about their number of overseas players; a familiar story...

[THE RED ROOSTER]

9 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

The sport as had no successful expansion projects. Catalans are a RL heartlands team, as are Toulouse. London could potentially be argued as a good example if only for the grass roots work that has been done but the reality is they play in a park in front of 500 fans. They do none of the 'raising the profile' that people think they do, it's a fantasy.

Obviously you have not been to Trailfinders, For all it's limitations it's a decent ground not the "park" you claim.

The plus for Londo,n as is also the case for Newcastle, is that its expands the games footprint. With a media that's London-centric. If you lived where I do then you would know Rugby League coverage in the papers is becoming non-existant and there was some limited coverage when there was a club in the Super League down here. You have to be relevant to your audience.

I have no problem with Newcastle purchasing Toronto's licence, after all when Branson sold London Broncos Leigh were one of the suitors for the licence then. So all being equal the Newcastle Wolfpack could be set for 2021.

It would also be a strategic decision that at least avoids a choice between Championship Clubs that would be toxic whoever was chosen, and if the game is going down the franchising route post 2022, then provided that the long term funding is in place for the forseeable future then why not.

Of course plenty will dislike this but then we are posting about Rugby League where someone always has a gripe..

[Magic XIII]

42 minutes ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Obviously you have not been to Trailfinders, For all it's limitations it's a decent ground not the "park" you claim.

Agree. Another poster looking to perpetuate a myth for their own end. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, Oldbear said:

I don’t disagree with you, I have already said that although I want Newcastle in SL, I want them to earn it the proper way, that is to say on the field. I find the whole bidding for Toronto’s spot by any team more than a little disturbing, since it smells of teams making a panic move, afraid that licensing is coming back and they will be on the outside looking in. I also agree that there are only 4 realistic candidates for the spot, I just wish there were a way they could fight it out on the field, as choosing one by another means is only going to lead to legal wrangling and bad blood between clubs.

Why should it be bad blood between the clubs? 

This conveniently brings us back to who will be on the adjudication panel of selection and by what criteria should the vacated SL place be filled in an office and not on the field of play. 

Where legal wrangling will be to the fore is if the closed shop does happen and is not expanded to all clubs who wish to apply. Many lessons will have been learned from the last process and will not want to be repeated by the governing body.

[Harry Stottle]

2 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Tradition of course!! 

But people tend to forget London in the late 90s especially would get really positive crowds; better than quite a few traditional sides. They then flipped locations once to often AND decided to focus on developing their own players/buying British* and the team and crowds suffered for it...

* I may add this was due to criticism about their number of overseas players; a familiar story...

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the criticism centered on London were allowed more overseas player's than other clubs.

[gingerjon]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the criticism centered on London were allowed more overseas player's than other clubs.

And when that was amended it was that we had a London weighting in the cap ... and when that was amended it was ...

[ckn]

5 posts removed. Come on folks, you can robustly disagree without resorting to personal insults.

[Tommygilf]

12 hours ago, Whippet13 said:

It depends on your perspective, some people think any club outside of Lancashire and Yorkshire are in the wrong part of the world, hold them in contempt and spit on them. Even today you can find at least one post on this forum wanting a financially strong and stable Catalans thrown out of Super League. You talk about the rubble of yet another disaster, but half of those occured because the sport did not support them properly as developing organisations.

I agree you raise valid points, but it's not a simple case of black and white.

And the reason the sport can't support them properly is because we are chronically cash-poor which is caused and undoubtedly exacerbated by our almost exclusive location in deprived post-industrial towns across Yorkshire and Lancashire. 

[Harry Stottle]

33 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

post-industrial

I can't think of anywhere that is a better example of those two words than Leeds, a wonderful place of manufacturing engineering factories, then it metamorphosised very quickly into sitting in front of a computor screen 'service' industry. 

That is not a criticism just an observation from someone who did quite a lot of work there and watched it dry up. 

[Toby Chopra]

3 hours ago, Lowdesert said:

Which one is this?

According the aptly named, Bob Hunter, it is Newcastle and New York, with New York progressed furthest.  I forget the exact time frame mentioned to then agree full terms but it was in a few days.  I'll see if I can find the piece.

I think there have been discussions with other parties in NA but Hunter said New York was the most progressed.

If NY gets it, my prediction is that they will keep the team in Toronto for one more year, stabilise the squad, and then flip it to NY for 2022, probably in the championship as they'll be favourites for relegation. 

[Tommygilf]

21 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I can't think of anywhere that is a better example of those two words than Leeds, a wonderful place of manufacturing engineering factories, then it metamorphosised very quickly into sitting in front of a computor screen 'service' industry. 

That is not a criticism just an observation from someone who did quite a lot of work there and watched it dry up. 

True. Unfortunately Leeds, Manchester and to an extent Liverpool and Hull are the exception not the rule. 

[Blind side johnny]

31 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

If NY gets it, my prediction is that they will keep the team in Toronto for one more year, stabilise the squad, and then flip it to NY for 2022, probably in the championship as they'll be favourites for relegation. 

If there is any relegation in 2021.

[Toby Chopra]

6 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

If there is any relegation in 2021.

The SL clubs on their own don't have the power to end relegation without it being approved by the RFL board. Unless they split with the RFL entirely, which they won't, especially now they're getting loans from it. 

Unless there's some wider restructuring which at least some championship teams get on board with - such as an expansion to 14 - then we'll see relegation at the end of next year. 

[Blind side johnny]

43 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

The SL clubs on their own don't have the power to end relegation without it being approved by the RFL board. Unless they split with the RFL entirely, which they won't, especially now they're getting loans from it. 

Unless there's some wider restructuring which at least some championship teams get on board with - such as an expansion to 14 - then we'll see relegation at the end of next year. 

We will see in due course. A year is a long time in RL World.

[LeeF]

6 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

Tradition of course!! 

But people tend to forget London in the late 90s especially would get really positive crowds; better than quite a few traditional sides. They then flipped locations once to often AND decided to focus on developing their own players/buying British* and the team and crowds suffered for it...

* I may add this was due to criticism about their number of overseas players; a familiar story...

I was asking the original poster who “throwing” money at Cumbrian clubs would be a better option than London after all they like most long established clubs have already received more money than London. 

The club the OP supports has actually received substantially more money than London and doesn’t run an Academy.....

[Tex Evans Thigh]

19 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

If your holding the financial difficulties of Gateshead Thunder in 1999 against the Newcastle club now, you must hold London Broncos accountable for their 2013 administration and Leigh for financial difficulties in 2009 and 2018. 

I'm not holding that against them, I'm saying it was rushed and failed after 1 year because it was rushed and planned on the back of a fag packet. Fev have had financial difficulties as well if you want to complete the set but the difference is that with most established clubs there is a way back. There is a big difference between a club being mismanaged and an expansion fantasy being rushed through, artificially promoted and falling at the first hurdle. Newcastle arent in a position to be fast tracked to SL, you know that as well as I do. I hope they keep progressing and get a chance in the near future though.

EDIT - I should have just said, I would judge a club on their current status and ability to step up, not previous incarnations. The comparison with the previous Gateshead franchise was just a convenient example of a rushed failure of an experiment that happened to be in the same part of the country. The current incarnation of Newcastle is much better but have a way to go yet. Getting out of League 1 would be a start.