Newcastle Thunder attempt to buy and replace Toronto in SL

[Tex Evans Thigh]

18 hours ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Obviously you have not been to Trailfinders, For all it's limitations it's a decent ground not the "park" you claim.

The plus for Londo,n as is also the case for Newcastle, is that its expands the games footprint. With a media that's London-centric. If you lived where I do then you would know Rugby League coverage in the papers is becoming non-existant and there was some limited coverage when there was a club in the Super League down here. You have to be relevant to your audience.

I have no problem with Newcastle purchasing Toronto's licence, after all when Branson sold London Broncos Leigh were one of the suitors for the licence then. So all being equal the Newcastle Wolfpack could be set for 2021.

It would also be a strategic decision that at least avoids a choice between Championship Clubs that would be toxic whoever was chosen, and if the game is going down the franchising route post 2022, then provided that the long term funding is in place for the forseeable future then why not.

Of course plenty will dislike this but then we are posting about Rugby League where someone always has a gripe..

I've been to Trailfinders several times, its a tidy, high-end amateur level ground that can just about pass for Championship RL level. SL should never have been played there, at least it shouldn't if the idea is for it to be viewed as an elite competition. Nice surroundings but not suitable for top level sport. I lived in London and have been involved in RL down there, the Broncos do nothing in terms of branding, the sport is virtually unknown. They were doing a good job with the development officers but that ended. 

I'd love a strong London and I stated they are one of the teams who should be considered but it's time we stopped this dreaming about what they bring to the game. If the whole London operation was lifted ('stadium', fanbase, juniors, commercial operation) and planted in Pontefract they wouldnt even be in the conversation. Its good to have a geographic spread but not for the sake of it.

Promoting Newcastle now would be disastrous. Teams need to be promoted when they are ready not because of where they are based. I can provide you with several examples if you like, one of them being errr Newcastle/Gatehead.

[Oldbear]

4 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Promoting Newcastle now would be disastrous. Teams need to be promoted when they are ready not because of where they are based. 

Teams need to be promoted via the field of play and as much as I am a Newcastle fan, we are only in League 1 so are at least a couple of years away. If we were to have a mini tournament (my favoured solution), and Fev were to win then Fev deserve to go up, regardless of where they are located.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

7 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Teams need to be promoted via the field of play and as much as I am a Newcastle fan, we are only in League 1 so are at least a couple of years away. If we were to have a mini tournament (my favoured solution), and Fev were to win then Fev deserve to go up, regardless of where they are located.

Spot on. Success on the field is usually brought about by a strong off-field effort, including Toronto, which is a shame they were failed by their ownership. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

8 hours ago, Oldbear said:

Teams need to be promoted via the field of play and as much as I am a Newcastle fan, we are only in League 1 so are at least a couple of years away. If we were to have a mini tournament (my favoured solution), and Fev were to win then Fev deserve to go up, regardless of where they are located.

Catalans were placed in Super League and have been a great success.

Toronto and Crusaders were made to earn their place and have not been a success.

Many success expansion clubs have also been placed straight into the NRL.

[Robin Evans]

3 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Catalans were placed in Super League and have been a great success.

Toronto and Crusaders were made to earn their place and have not been a success.

Many success expansion clubs have also been placed straight into the NRL.

Catalans an expansion club??? Gi'oer now......

They were from a very strong rugby league heartland. 

[Big Picture]

40 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Many success expansion clubs have also been placed straight into the NRL.

Ditto the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, ...

[Robin Evans]

So where are we going wrong in rugby?

Why is expansion in rugby so challenging and full of disappointment?

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

So where are we going wrong in rugby?

Why is expansion in rugby so challenging and full of disappointment?

Because it’s not collectively supported by Clubs.  It is a little by lip service but that’s it.

We can’t blame them as we’d do the same in their place.  Waiting for someone else to commit money.

This is why there needs to be a separate entity directing the strategy.

[Blind side johnny]

22 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

So where are we going wrong in rugby?

Why is expansion in rugby so challenging and full of disappointment?

Because it is expensive and requires long term commitment, the latter not being commonplace in RL.

[Gerrumonside ref]

7 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

Because it is expensive and requires long term commitment, the latter not being commonplace in RL.

Also baseball and American Football are expanding into areas in USA where baseball and American Football is already played, watched and understood.

Even in the example of London, the NFL strategy is to expand very slowly, but consistently with lots of research on likely take up of season tickets, media viewership etc

Rugby League on the other hand tends to expand into areas where little of the sport is known, played, watched or understood sometimes.  Perhaps a slower, ground root strategy is the way forward for us probably best exemplified by Newcastle.

[Oldbear]

4 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Also baseball and American Football are expanding into areas in USA where baseball and American Football is already played, watched and understood.

Even in the example of London, the NFL strategy is to expand very slowly, but consistently with lots of research on likely take up of season tickets, media viewership etc

Rugby League on the other hand tends to expand into areas where little of the sport is known, played, watched or understood sometimes.  Perhaps a slower, ground root strategy is the way forward for us probably best exemplified by Newcastle.

The only problem with the slower approach is we famously lack patience and don’t commit to the long term, as BSJ so correctly pointed out.

[Michael1812]

7 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

Also baseball and American Football are expanding into areas in USA where baseball and American Football is already played, watched and 

Then what about NHL expansion in to the American south, south west, and west coast?

[Blind side johnny]

1 hour ago, Michael1812 said:

Then what about NHL expansion in to the American south, south west, and west coast?

And don't forget lacrosse and crown green bowling.

[Gerrumonside ref]

1 hour ago, Michael1812 said:

Then what about NHL expansion in to the American south, south west, and west coast?

How successful are they in those markets?

[Oldbear]

2 hours ago, Michael1812 said:

Then what about NHL expansion in to the American south, south west, and west coast?

But the NHL has benefited by being a franchised League, so no threat of relegation. Expansion teams also get the benefit of the expansion draft, under those circumstances teams can build knowing there’s no threat of their top flight status being taken away. Usually the biggest threat facing teams in new markets is them failing to draw a decent TV audience and their owners losing patience and getting itchy feet about relocation. I would still suggest for every success like LA there’s been a few failures or relative failures (Atlanta ended up in Winnipeg, Florida and Arizona struggle mightily to attract fans, Vegas is just too new to judge). Teams like Arizona rely heavily on visiting fans buying packages where they get a short hotel break and game tickets, often for fans in high demand cities like Toronto or Boston it’s cheaper for them to go on one of those short breaks to Arizona or Florida than it is to buy overpriced home game tickets from scalpers.

[Oldbear]

52 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

How successful are they in those markets?

Mixed, some like LA and Anaheim play to sell out crowds, have won the Stanley Cup and even inspired local kids to play hockey, others like Florida and Arizona lose money, rely on large numbers of visiting fans to fill their rinks and are constantly rumoured to be candidates for relocation, they have seen some local players come through though.

The one thing that the NHL, along with other major NA sports do though is to stay patient. Even these leagues have failed expansion attempts but it doesn’t stop the league from trying. What happens is that the application process for a new franchise gets tougher and tougher each time, if you can’t tick all the boxes you don’t get in. Sadly RL is nowhere near being able to be able to operate in that way, however we should be a lot more stringent when assessing applications for new teams rather than just saying “well the owner is rich so everything’s going to be fine”.

[Snowys Backside]

On 07/08/2020 at 15:32, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Catalans were placed in Super League and have been a great success.

Toronto and Crusaders were made to earn their place and have not been a success.

Many success expansion clubs have also been placed straight into the NRL.

How did Crusaders earn their place in SL ?

Like 

London in 1995, I'm intreagued.  Go on..............

 

Ah,  famous grade Christmas license and a budget sheet and cheating Aussies to boot.

 

Out of the teams you mention, only Toronto deserve praise for getting promoted on the pitch.

 

SL should be played by the best 12 we have. If them teams are within 10 miles radius or 10000 miles, who cares.

[Robin Evans]

15 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

How did Crusaders earn their place in SL ?

Like 

London in 1995, I'm intreagued.  Go on..............

 

Ah,  famous grade Christmas license and a budget sheet and cheating Aussies to boot.

 

Out of the teams you mention, only Toronto deserve praise for getting promoted on the pitch.

 

SL should be played by the best 12 we have. If them teams are within 10 miles radius or 10000 miles, who cares.

BOOM!!!

[GeordieSaint]

27 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

How did Crusaders earn their place in SL ?

Whilst they were awarded a licence, didn’t Crusaders win the GF the year they went up? (or at least finished 2nd in the regular league games). 

[Hela Wigmen]

4 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

Whilst they were awarded a licence, didn’t Crusaders win the GF the year they went up? (or at least finished 2nd in the regular league games). 

Yes, they beat Salford 38-16 in 2008. Both were promoted as part of the licensing era. 

[Michael1812]

10 hours ago, Oldbear said:

But the NHL has benefited by being a franchised League, so no threat of relegation. Expansion teams also get the benefit of the expansion draft, under those circumstances teams can build knowing there’s no threat of their top flight status being taken away. Usually the biggest threat facing teams in new markets is them failing to draw a decent TV audience and their owners losing patience and getting itchy feet about relocation. I would still suggest for every success like LA there’s been a few failures or relative failures (Atlanta ended up in Winnipeg, Florida and Arizona struggle mightily to attract fans, Vegas is just too new to judge). Teams like Arizona rely heavily on visiting fans buying packages where they get a short hotel break and game tickets, often for fans in high demand cities like Toronto or Boston it’s cheaper for them to go on one of those short breaks to Arizona or Florida than it is to buy overpriced home game tickets from scalpers.

I was countering the point that North American expansion only happens where the game is already played at the grass routes level and therefore is successful because of that. 

[Michael1812]

12 hours ago, Blind side johnny said:

And don't forget lacrosse and crown green bowling.

You wish rugby league could have a quarter of the success of the NHL. Even despite the small number of nations playing the sport, it still dominates rugby league at the international level as well. 
 

I

[Snowys Backside]

1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Yes, they beat Salford 38-16 in 2008. Both were promoted as part of the licensing era. 

Did they ?  They got promoted for losing a Grand final. Salford won easily in extra time as the crusaders aussies could take in the 'juice'.

Best teams only. Us little mining towns who create these fantastic playears at amateur level may well finally get a chance of keeping hold of them! 

[GeordieSaint]

8 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

Did they ?  They got promoted for losing a Grand final. Salford won easily in extra time as the crusaders aussies could take in the 'juice'.

Best teams only.

I think there’s an issue in a couple of reports online, which has the score the other way around. But two slots into SL became available in 2008 and the best two teams that year went up... 

[Snowys Backside]

13 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said:

I think there’s an issue in a couple of reports online, which has the score the other way around. But two slots into SL became available in 2008 and the best two teams that year went up... 

And it proved to be a farce. 12 years on, Super League still have not learned anything and with the sounds of it never will. Ourban great game won't be around much longer due to the lack of vision by both muskets and some really selfish SL chairmen who have too much of a say. The competition is now frankly boring !

The expansionist are obsessed and not one has been sustained. They will come back for more no doubt but your Leighs, Widnes and Featherstone will plod on with grounds some teams would die for. Eventually, the lack of long term planning will bite them teams on the backside (and not mine) . No relegation will do some teams more harm than good !