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Interesting Wilkin/Folau


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9 minutes ago, audois said:

This is an interesting quote from the SMH article:

What Isaac was saying is that you don't have to wear the jersey to support the team. If Folau feels that kneeling is reserved for his deity of choice, so be it. He doesn't deserve to be publicly shamed for his decision on this matter.

Where the above is weird is that Folau isn't being shamed for his decision in this matter or that his view is kneeling is reserved for God. Quite simply we do not know, because some people are telling us we are not allowed to ask. 

Now if the SMH article took that approach, fair enough, but bearing in mind they have just written an article on it, they are not just leaving him to it, they have simply given a reason for him which may not be Folau's reason in the slightest. 

Folau hasn't been shamed, people have asked a question, which some don't like people doing.

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5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

This is an interesting quote from the SMH article:

What Isaac was saying is that you don't have to wear the jersey to support the team. If Folau feels that kneeling is reserved for his deity of choice, so be it. He doesn't deserve to be publicly shamed for his decision on this matter.

Where the above is weird is that Folau isn't being shamed for his decision in this matter or that his view is kneeling is reserved for God. Quite simply we do not know, because some people are telling us we are not allowed to ask

Now if the SMH article took that approach, fair enough, but bearing in mind they have just written an article on it, they are not just leaving him to it, they have simply given a reason for him which may not be Folau's reason in the slightest. 

Folau hasn't been shamed, people have asked a question, which some don't like people doing.

We had this conversation on the last thread.  Of course we are allowed to ask but I don't think we should ask.

For the last 125 years players have come onto a pitch and then started to play a game.  Now we have a situation where players and officials are kneeling to demonstrate their support for a cause.  In this conversation it can be any cause - whether we support that cause or not.

A player has decided not to participate.  Why should we ask him why?  I didn't join any of the BLM marches and nobody asked me why.  And it definitely wasn't because I don't support the cause.

And I don't buy this idea that he is in the public eye and so he is fair game.  The sport changed around him, he didn't suddenly decide to do something different or new.

Unlike his social media posts where it was entirely legitimate to challenge him, here he is simply exercising a personal choice.  He is not deciding to do anything and he is not changing his behaviour or actions... he is simply doing what he has always done.

If he decides that he wants to share his reasons then fine - he can,  and if we don't like them so we can challenge them.  Until that point it is private. 

Just because we can ask him to explain himself doesn't mean we should.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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40 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

We had this conversation on the last thread.  Of course we are allowed to ask but I don't think we should ask.

For the last 125 years players have come onto a pitch and then started to play a game.  Now we have a situation where players and officials are kneeling to demonstrate their support for a cause.  In this conversation it can be any cause - whether we support that cause or not.

A player has decided not to participate.  Why should we ask him why?  I didn't join any of the BLM marches and nobody asked me why.  And it definitely wasn't because I don't support the cause.

And I don't buy this idea that he is in the public eye and so he is fair game.  The sport changed around him, he didn't suddenly decide to do something different or new.

Unlike his social media posts where it was entirely legitimate to challenge him, here he is simply exercising a personal choice.  He is not deciding to do anything and he is not changing his behaviour or actions... he is simply doing what he has always done.

If he decides that he wants to share his reasons then fine - he can,  and if we don't like them so we can challenge them.  Until that point it is private. 

Just because we can ask him to explain himself doesn't mean we should.

I understand your viewpoint on this, I just don't agree mate. 

I don't see an issue in the slightest with asking. I think it is a perfectly natural thing to ask, it would be the same if somebody didn't stand for the anthem or similar, or went off warming up during a minute's silence or whatever. And it has been the same across other sports with other players. 

There was the basketball player referred to in the article, he stood, was asked, he answered, it wasn't that big a deal, his answer was around his religion. It was a respectful and we'll thought out answer (whatever your view is of religion). 

But that is only part of my point, I am confused as to how the journo is pretending that he is getting bashed for what he did, when that isn't true, and the journo made up his own reason for Folau's approach which was odd. 

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

if somebody didn't stand for the anthem or similar, or went off warming up during a minute's silence or whatever.

Those would be breaks from the norm and worth challenging but here it is Folau who is behaving 'normally'.

Anyway we have both stated our opinions and I don't have a great deal to add so will leave it there. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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5 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Those would be breaks from the norm and worth challenging but here it is Folau who is behaving 'normally'.

Anyway we have both stated our opinions and I don't have a great deal to add so will leave it there. 

Agreed on your 2nd point, but I think you are pushing it with the first! 😆

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23 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I understand your viewpoint on this, I just don't agree mate. 

I don't see an issue in the slightest with asking. I think it is a perfectly natural thing to ask, it would be the same if somebody didn't stand for the anthem or similar, or went off warming up during a minute's silence or whatever. And it has been the same across other sports with other players. 

There was the basketball player referred to in the article, he stood, was asked, he answered, it wasn't that big a deal, his answer was around his religion. It was a respectful and we'll thought out answer (whatever your view is of religion). 

But that is only part of my point, I am confused as to how the journo is pretending that he is getting bashed for what he did, when that isn't true, and the journo made up his own reason for Folau's approach which was odd. 

just to put a bit of context on Johnathon Isaac, (as an Orlando magic fan) he's an ordained minister so highly religious, in a league of young men (he's 22) with ridiculous wealth, he does a hell of a lot of charity work in the Orlando area, with under privileged kids/families. He's donated a fair chunk of money to the Arena staff who have lost out on wages during the lock down.  He's a good dude, but there's rumours and stuff that suggest he isn't all that close to his teammates because of how strongly religious he is.

 

Non of them came to his celebration where he was ordained, it was a big story at the time, however he never does anything hard line or 'far right' or fundamentalist, its a little strange.

 i would guess he's the other end of the spectrum from Israel in terms of outspokenness and being judgmental, he preaches compassion, izzy says you're  getting a red hot poker up his jacksy.

Whats also interesting about him not taking a knee, all the maga idiots have come out supporting him and they've sold out of his named jersey on nba.com (approx $150 dollars) in about 24 hours.

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4 hours ago, Dave T said:

This is an interesting quote from the SMH article:

What Isaac was saying is that you don't have to wear the jersey to support the team. If Folau feels that kneeling is reserved for his deity of choice, so be it. He doesn't deserve to be publicly shamed for his decision on this matter.

Where the above is weird is that Folau isn't being shamed for his decision in this matter or that his view is kneeling is reserved for God. Quite simply we do not know, because some people are telling us we are not allowed to ask. 

Now if the SMH article took that approach, fair enough, but bearing in mind they have just written an article on it, they are not just leaving him to it, they have simply given a reason for him which may not be Folau's reason in the slightest. 

Folau hasn't been shamed, people have asked a question, which some don't like people doing.

He has been criticised in lots of sections of media, either outright or implied. Here’s just one example 

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/why-barrie-mcdermott-thinks-israel-folau-got-it-wrong/

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5 hours ago, Dave T said:

I understand your viewpoint on this, I just don't agree mate. 

I don't see an issue in the slightest with asking. I think it is a perfectly natural thing to ask, it would be the same if somebody didn't stand for the anthem or similar, or went off warming up during a minute's silence or whatever. And it has been the same across other sports with other players. 

There was the basketball player referred to in the article, he stood, was asked, he answered, it wasn't that big a deal, his answer was around his religion. It was a respectful and we'll thought out answer (whatever your view is of religion). 

But that is only part of my point, I am confused as to how the journo is pretending that he is getting bashed for what he did, when that isn't true, and the journo made up his own reason for Folau's approach which was odd. 

Do we ask every player, athlete etc to explain why they don't sing the national anthem if they are shown to be not doing it?

Do we ask every person in a church for example who doesn't pray to God, why not?

Do we ask Rita in the co op why she didn't buy a multipack of quavers?

Why should we ask Folau why he chose not to kneel down before a game?

It's his choice and got sod all to do with anyone else surely?

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1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

He has been criticised in lots of sections of media, either outright or implied. Here’s just one example 

https://www.loverugbyleague.com/post/why-barrie-mcdermott-thinks-israel-folau-got-it-wrong/

And this is why I think it is reasonable to discuss this instead of refusing to do so. People will come to their own conclusions. 

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26 minutes ago, meast said:

Do we ask every player, athlete etc to explain why they don't sing the national anthem if they are shown to be not doing it?

Do we ask every person in a church for example who doesn't pray to God, why not?

Do we ask Rita in the co op why she didn't buy a multipack of quavers?

Why should we ask Folau why he chose not to kneel down before a game?

It's his choice and got sod all to do with anyone else surely?

You can keep saying that, but professional sports people do not just train 4 days a week and play on the 5th. They are celebrities, personalities, they get plenty of benefits from that including financial. 

It is public interest, if we take your attitude then we should never see an RL player in the media again. Because what they have to say has sod all to do with us. 

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3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

You can keep saying that, but professional sports people do not just train 4 days a week and play on the 5th. They are celebrities, personalities, they get plenty of benefits from that including financial. 

It is public interest, if we take your attitude then we should never see an RL player in the media again. Because what they have to say has sod all to do with us. 

How is someone not taking a knee, public interest?

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1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

How is someone not taking a knee, public interest?

I'm clearly not talking about Public Interest in a public welfare kind of way, but that there is a level of interest from the general public that absolutely justifies journos asking the question. 

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1 minute ago, Dave T said:

I'm clearly not talking about Public Interest in a public welfare kind of way, but that there is a level of interest from the general public that absolutely justifies journos asking the question. 

And surely within his right to not answer said questions?

 

I feel for me he was respectful while the others players got on with their protest

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Just now, briggyq said:

And surely within his right to not answer said questions?

 

I feel for me he was respectful while the others players got on with their protest

Yes, he is well within his rights not to answer. I made that exact point, although to be fair that may have been on the other thread. 

Where I am disagreeing is when people say we should not ask him about it. 

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If they knew he wasn't going to do it, why didn't they, or he, release a statement beforehand explaining his reasons. Like James McClean, people may not have liked them, but at least it wouldn't be ambiguous.

 

The comments on a lot of RL related BLM posts are utter cesspits, and show those who say there's no racism in our game to be blind to it.

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7 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, he is well within his rights not to answer. I made that exact point, although to be fair that may have been on the other thread. 

Where I am disagreeing is when people say we should not ask him about it. 

I certainly didn't see your previous answer Mate 🙂 that said I feel on the point on journo's asking him questions Catalan do seem to be keeping him very close to their chest for fear of him dropping off the cliff into rant territory.

But yes just issue a statement saying he respects the point of what they're trying to achieve,he is a man of colour and certainly the whole debate is far closer to him than it ever can be to myself a middle aged white bloke

 

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11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Yes, he is well within his rights not to answer. I made that exact point, although to be fair that may have been on the other thread. 

Where I am disagreeing is when people say we should not ask him about it. 

You also said he’s not been shamed, which isn’t the case. Even Sky Sports ran with the story about McNamara defending Folau’s decision, implying he did something wrong.
What’s there to defend? It’s a personal choice

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12 minutes ago, RigbyLuger said:

If they knew he wasn't going to do it, why didn't they, or he, release a statement beforehand explaining his reasons. Like James McClean, people may not have liked them, but at least it wouldn't be ambiguous.

 

The comments on a lot of RL related BLM posts are utter cesspits, and show those who say there's no racism in our game to be blind to it.

He doesnt have to explain anything to anyone on this issue.

Its fair game to ask and its his right not to reply should he choose not to.

Folks could draw there own conclusions based on that and his previous behaviour without such clarity. 

There really is nowt more to it.

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