Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 29 minutes ago, ghost crayfish said: I made that comment as a small part of what was overall a positive comment about his NRL performance, so I don't really get why you've bothered responding just to that one specific point... Besides, naming other fullbacks who made lots of mistakes doesn't disprove what I said anyway. Couple of points. It wasn't meant to be a reply specifically to you, rather about the idea that Tomkins made loads of mistakes that year. Although I accept that as I quoted you it would appear as though I was picking up on your point specifically (and it was positive) so I apologise for that. Secondly, I don't think any of them made a lot of mistakes... around 12 or 13 errors in a season doesn't seem like lots to me (again, that was the point of the post, not that others made lots of mistakes as well... rather that Tomkins didn't make as many as people assume given the 'flop' rhetoric). "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 On 18/08/2020 at 11:02, JM2010 said: I agree. My point was that he's another international standard fullback from Halifax People often forget Mario Cerchionne as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lowdesert Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 On 18/08/2020 at 09:31, Man of Kent said: Lots of competition for places in the spine. Such a shame about the crisis as I’d love to see who Wane would pick for England. You fancy he’d go for Tomkins at FB and Williams in the halves. Id be amazed if any other pairing was used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, Lowdesert said: Id be amazed if any other pairing was used. As of today I would go with Tomkins at 1 and Williams and Lomax in the halves. The likes of Connor and Widdop are in the mix as well. Although Trueman could be an option if he continues to develop and later maybe young Smith from Wigan. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 On 17/08/2020 at 20:23, meast said: some of these young lads at Wigan, Leeds etc only need to play 5 games to be considered international standard. Never a truer word said, but that just goes to show the lack of real talent we have in our game, and dare I say our desperation by both the media and fans in elevating young lads and putting unnecessary pressure on them far far to soon in their carrears. A very typical example is young Morgan Smithies at Wigan, he comes onto the scene and is talked about as the next big thing to help us defeat the Aussies, but - my opinion - a good prospect but there was and still is at least a dozen or so English second row forwards with a much better all round game than Morgan, I can't see him getting in the England team in '21. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Never a truer word said, but that just goes to show the lack of real talent we have in our game, and dare I say our desperation by both the media and fans in elevating young lads and putting unnecessary pressure on them far far to soon in their carrears. A very typical example is young Morgan Smithies at Wigan, he comes onto the scene and is talked about as the next big thing to help us defeat the Aussies, but - my opinion - a good prospect but there was and still is at least a dozen or so English second row forwards with a much better all round game than Morgan, I can't see him getting in the England team in '21. Morgan Smithies doesn't play in the second row. At Wigan, Liam Farrell and Willie Isa play on the edge with the likes of Joe Greenwood off the bench. Smithies is a middle forward so in old money a 13. There may or may not be better players than him but second row is not the comparison. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: Morgan Smithies doesn't play in the second row. At Wigan, Liam Farrell and Willie Isa play on the edge with the likes of Joe Greenwood off the bench. Smithies is a middle forward so in old money a 13. There may or may not be better players than him but second row is not the comparison. Have my eyes decieved me Dunny, have I never seen him partake in a scrum behind the front row and in front of the loose forward? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Just now, Harry Stottle said: Have my eyes decieved me Dunny, have I never seen him partake in a scrum behind the front row and in front of the loose forward? Come on Harry, are you really basing modern day Rugby League positions on where they pack in the scrum? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said: Never a truer word said, but that just goes to show the lack of real talent we have in our game, and dare I say our desperation by both the media and fans in elevating young lads and putting unnecessary pressure on them far far to soon in their carrears. A very typical example is young Morgan Smithies at Wigan, he comes onto the scene and is talked about as the next big thing to help us defeat the Aussies, but - my opinion - a good prospect but there was and still is at least a dozen or so English second row forwards with a much better all round game than Morgan, I can't see him getting in the England team in '21. They generally are not considered by the people who matter I.e the international coach,when they are its usually because they are exceptional as in the case of Farrell & Burgess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnyia Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 8 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Come on Harry, are you really basing modern day Rugby League positions on where they pack in the scrum? If I remember rightly. (In a defensive scrum) If the scrum is on the left the left centre packs down in the left second row position . The second row and lock are in the defensive line the full back in the lock position the right prop in the second row with the left centre, the nine at prop the left prop in the hookers position and the left second row in the left prop position, simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 19 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Come on Harry, are you really basing modern day Rugby League positions on where they pack in the scrum? So he has packed down in the second row? If you have a newbie with you and the scrum is being formed how would you describe the positions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Go on jyst between me and you Dav, how would you describe the forming pack positions to a newbie? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 26 minutes ago, Davo5 said: They generally are not considered by the people who matter I.e the international coach,when they are its usually because they are exceptional as in the case of Farrell & Burgess. Read back what I said Dav, I said it was the media and fans putting pressure on some of the talented youngsters telling them how good they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: So he has packed down in the second row? If you have a newbie with you and the scrum is being formed how would you describe the positions? I would say, ignore the scrum as it doesn't mean anything. And then I would explain how some of the forwards play through the middle and some play on the edges of the attack. Of course, it doesn't help any newcomer that the numbers on players backs mean nothing these days as does the position in the pack. I have said many times on these boards, we do nothing to help newcomers to our sport understand the positions and their responsibilities... in fact we actively make it difficult. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Go on jyst between me and you Dav, how would you describe the forming pack positions to a newbie? A shambles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I would say, ignore the scrum as it doesn't mean anything. And then I would explain how some of the forwards play through the middle and some play on the edges of the attack. Of course, it doesn't help any newcomer that the numbers on players backs mean nothing these days as does the position in the pack. I have said many times on these boards, we do nothing to help newcomers to our sport understand the positions and their responsibilities... in fact we actively make it difficult. Yep a second row can be an extra centre, and a second row can be another middle, and just to compound it further, In Australia where the middles were the 3 middles were formulated they are dropping that in favour of two second rows up the middle and reverting back to ball playing 13'S i.e.loose forwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Davo5 said: A shambles Fair enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 26 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Have my eyes decieved me Dunny, have I never seen him partake in a scrum behind the front row and in front of the loose forward? Scrums? What are they? But being serious, and being critical of your comments I'm afraid, Smithies packs down behind the second rows and is in old parlance a prop forward, a player who takes the ball up "up the middle" of the park, off the edge of the ruck. There are few loose forwards today. O'Loughlin, when he is fit, is something of a carryover as he be play and pass out wide, but increasingly plays up the middle. The second rows carry out the wide role of the old loose forward. As for who is selected, Farrell must already be booked on the aircraft carrier. Given the fact that we are playing several games in a short time and its a tough game then energy is important. Youth will count and Smithies is one of the best. I'm not saying there might be better... But they will have to step up and prove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Yep a second row can be an extra centre, and a second row can be another middle, and just to compound it further, In Australia where the middles were the 3 middles were formulated they are dropping that in favour of two second rows up the middle and reverting back to ball playing 13'S i.e.loose forwards. And this is where Morgan Smithies is. We are not seeing his ball playing yet but he has it in his game as we saw in the Academy tests. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dunbar said: And this is where Morgan Smithies is. We are not seeing his ball playing yet but he has it in his game as we saw in the Academy tests. For those people who have not seen the Academy tests, what do they see Smithies game being? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 Just now, Harry Stottle said: For those people who have not seen the Academy tests, what do they see Smithies game being? When you mention teams in Australia bringing back the more traditional 13 role then we are really talking about the likes of Victor Radley at the Roosters and Cam Murray at Souths. Both a little smaller than the 'middles' but who get through a mountain of work in defence and can be a little more mobile in attack and (certainly in the case of Radley) can be creative as well. I see Smithies as being in this mould. He is touted as being a bit of a tackling machine at the moment but he has decent hands as well. I would probably put him in the Radley mould more than Murray as the latter has a very dynamic running game. I am not saying that Smithies is as good as these two or that he will be but if we want to nuture the next generation of middle forwards then he is one to develop for sure. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 24 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said: The second rows carry out the wide role of the old loose forward. The wide roll of the 'old' loose forwards, how far are you going back? , the best exponents I have seen here include Vinty Karalius, Malcom Reilly, Harry Pinner, Knocker Norton, George Nicholls, Dougie Laughton, Paul Sculthorpe, Andy Farrell, Sam Burgess, most of those played first or second reciever from dummy half not wide out, and from down under Paul Gallen, Ben Kennedy, Ray Price, Hugh McGhan, Jason Croker all played around where the ball was and not defined as a wide roll position. There are many others I could name, if I sat long enough to think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: The wide roll of the 'old' loose forwards, how far are you going back? , the best exponents I have seen here include Vinty Karalius, Malcom Reilly, Harry Pinner, Knocker Norton, George Nicholls, Dougie Laughton, Paul Sculthorpe, Andy Farrell, Sam Burgess, most of those played first or second reciever from dummy half not wide out, and from down under Paul Gallen, Ben Kennedy, Ray Price, Hugh McGhan, Jason Croker all played around where the ball was and not defined as a wide roll position. There are many others I could name, if I sat long enough to think about it. You can name as many of them as you like and I watched most of them play. Smithies is not a second row and is not a "loose forward". The loose forward was a multi faceted role, and one of them was to play out wide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said: You can name as many of them as you like and I watched most of them play. Smithies is not a second row and is not a "loose forward". The loose forward was a multi faceted role, and one of them was to play out wide. Good sidestep Princey, of the 'old stand off' fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidM Posted August 19, 2020 Share Posted August 19, 2020 50 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: reverting back to ball playing 13'S i.e.loose forwards. Good . I don’t like the term middle forward as it lumps everyone together . Props and a loose forward , and call me old fashioned but I still want them to be distinctive positions , giving the team more dimensions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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