Knowles opts for England

[DavidM]

10 hours ago, Number 16 said:

I've not seen this posted anywhere else on this board

Look harder

[DavidM]

1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

Shaun Wane has made some very strong comments about not picking Aussies for England, but he's quite happy to pick someone who has already played for another country? 

I’m not knocking Knowles , but you make a fair point . He also said he wouldn’t chase anyone 

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:

You wouldn't have said that if you'd seen Wales v Australia in the semi-final of the 2000 World Cup. Every Welsh player played above his reputation.

Australia: Lockyer, MacDougall, Girdler, Gidley, Sailor, Fittler (capt), Kimmorley, Webcke, Gower, Vella, Tallis, Fletcher, Hill. Replacements: Barrett, Kearns, Kennedy, Hindmarsh

Wales: Harris, Smith, Tassell, Critchley, Sullivan, Briers, Watson, Farrell, Cunningham, Moriarty, Morgan, Highton, Morley. Replacements: Davies, Atcheson, Devereux, Luckwell.

 

I saw them Wolly albeit on TV and cheered the Welsh lads on every step of the way, I must have jumped 6' in the air when Lee Briers took that bomb out of Lockyer's hand to score, mind if was Outer Mongolia or whoever playing Australia I would cheer them on also.

PS I was at Bolton the day before watching NZ absolutely humiliate England by 40odd points, I distinctly remember near the end when the England team were once again trudging back from yet another embarrassing score against, I loudly commented from my position in the stand "You are a disgrace England", Chev Walker turned to the direction of the comment and mouthed what I took to be F. off and waved two fingers in the air.

[Lowdesert]

I’ve searched for the full elite training squad - anyone found it or is it yet to be announced?

[nadera78]

1 hour ago, Wolford6 said:

We have had Australian-based players paying their own way to Wales to play for our team. I don't know if Tyson did but he put in a full effort every time he played. So did Justin Morgan and , especially, Mark Lennon.

I was in the hotel after Wales lost to America. The Welsh fans loved them just the same.

Genuine questions:

Are you Welsh?

Have you ever been to watch Wales play?

I'm not Welsh but I have watched them play. They, and France, constitute our best hope of ever building a European rival for England.

There's no comparison between the likes of Lennon, who was committed to Wales to the detriment of his own bank balance, and Frizell, Knowles, etc coming and going when it suits them.

[DavidM]

1 hour ago, nadera78 said:

Of course people can have multiple nationalities, and of course they can choose who to play for. That much is obvious. But players shouldn't be switching like this. And England should not be picking someone who has already played for someone else. I don't care if New Zealand (regularly) or Australia (occasionally) do it.

Wales have just lost their best player and he's not even guaranteed a game with us. It's just wrong.

This is where it gets a bit complicated . We can sit here and say ‘ I don’t like this much , he picked someone else rather than us then says can I come back ‘ . I get that . But this is happening more and more regularly in the Southern Hemisphere . Whichever way round , players are shifting allegiances within the rules . That’s the game , that’s the world  . Now , can we say it’s great that players are moving to Tonga and Samoa etc , and  accept and applaud that it’s happening when it bolsters the international game .... yet on the other hand say well this is no good in another context . Until the rules change this is how it is and you play within them to be as strong as possible 

[Wolford6]

34 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

I’ve searched for the full elite training squad - anyone found it or is it yet to be announced?

https://rugbyleague.wales/wales-open-age-players

Probably from 2019:

Caleb Aekins       Full-back 22;       Bailey Antrobus Second row 20; Gavin Bennion Second row ;Chester Butler Centre 24; Mike Butt Wing 25; Connor Davies Prop 23; Curtis Davies Half back 23; Gil Dudson Prop 30; Jake Emmitt Prop 31; Ben Evans Prop 27; Morgan Evans Prop 28; Rhys Evans Centre 27; Will Evans Centre 19; Dan Fleming Prop 28; Ben Flower Utility forward 32; Matty Fozard Utility forward 25; Regan Grace Wing 23; Dalton Grant Wing 30; Cobi Green Half back 21; Lewis Hall Centre 19; Elliot Jenkins Half back 21; Sion Jones Back row 22; Elliot Kear Full-back 31;  Rhodri Lloyd Second row 27; Rob Massam Wing 32; Matthew Morgan; Half back 19; Ben Morris Centre 23; James Olds Centre 29; Steve Parry Hooker 31; Josh Ralph Half back 23; Liam Rice-Wilson Half back 24; Luis Roberts Centre 18; Lloyd White Half back 31; Rhys Williams Wing 30

[Harry Stottle]

20 minutes ago, DavidM said:

This is where it gets a bit complicated . We can sit here and say ‘ I don’t like this much , he picked someone else rather than us then says can I come back ‘ . I get that . But this is happening more and more regularly in the Southern Hemisphere . Whichever way round , players are shifting allegiances within the rules . That’s the game , that’s the world  . Now , can we say it’s great that players are moving to Tonga and Samoa etc , and  accept and applaud that it’s happening when it bolsters the international game .... yet on the other hand say well this is no good in another context . Until the rules change this is how it is and you play within them to be as strong as possible 

I may be old fashioned David, but I do think there is some ethical value to take from this, like 3 Aussies last year 2 of which had not completed a full 12 months here and the third who had done only a season and a half full well knowing they would never get selection for the country of their birth, which they were brought up in, learned the sport and played it at the domestic highest level to then say can I please play for you, not only do I find that abhorrent but it decry's lads who have followed the same path over here the opportunity for selection.

I said after attending the series last Autumn that I would not go to another International whilst Mr Bennett was still in charge, thankfully for me Mr Wane has replaced him, a man who by the comments he has already made seems to share the same ethical values as me.

I would sooner be a loser than a winner which enlists mercenaries.

PS, I don't  care who does what and what the rules are. 

[Dave T]

6 hours ago, nadera78 said:

I don't care what the eligibility rules are, England should never pick someone who has already played for another country.

I agree in principle, I'm just not sure that would fix this problem. I think it would just mean that Ben Currie would never have played for Ireland in the first place, nor Knowles for Wales. 

But this doesn't feel like a decent place for us to be 25 years after our first proper expanded World Cup.

[DavidM]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I may be old fashioned David, but I do think there is some ethical value to take from this, like 3 Aussies last year 2 of which had not completed a full 12 months here and the third who had done only a season and a half full well knowing they would never get selection for the country of their birth, which they were brought up in, learned the sport and played it at the domestic highest level to then say can I please play for you, not only do I find that abhorrent but it decry's lads who have followed the same path over here the opportunity for selection.

I said after attending the series last Autumn that I would not go to another International whilst Mr Bennett was still in charge, thankfully for me Mr Wane has replaced him, a man who by the comments he has already made seems to share the same ethical values as me.

I would sooner be a loser than a winner which enlists mercenaries.

PS, I don't  care who does what and what the rules are. 

I understand Harry , we’ve said before on this different views are valid , it’s not straightforward . I get conflicted . I respect your opinion entirely 

[stevevalerugby]

2 hours ago, Wolford6 said:

We need dual-nationality to expand the game.

Your not expanding the game all you do is turn off decent players in Wales who can’t be bothered because when it comes to the big tournaments players who can’t get into the Australian or English teams decide maybe they are Welsh after all.  All you are doing is using Wales and other 2nd tier nations for game time until you might decide they are good enough for tier 1 sides.  How are tier 2 sides ever going to compete if you keep taking their best players away.  Once you have represented a country once then you should be attached to that country for the rest of your career then you will see who wants to play for who.  
 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

When did the eligible England player's last play in an international series,

Answer, 4 games last Autumn.

Exactly the same as the Welsh and Scottish players too then. A better question would have been when was the last high profile Welsh game. Thats either the 9s (2019) or the WC (2017).

[DavidM]

3 minutes ago, stevevalerugby said:

All you are doing is using Wales and other 2nd tier nations for game time until you might decide they are good enough for tier 1 sides.  How are tier 2 sides ever going to compete if you keep taking their best players away.  Once you have represented a country once then you should be attached to that country for the rest of your career then you will see who wants to play for who

But this is working the other way as well as we’ve seen with the Pacific islands 

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly the same as the Welsh and Scottish players too then. A better question would have been when was the last high profile Welsh game. Thats either the 9s (2019) or the WC (2017).

Sort of - but the farce we had meant the likes of Coote was dropped after one game and Grace was overlooked because Bennett was using the GB team as an England team. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Sort of - but the farce we had meant the likes of Coote was dropped after one game and Grace was overlooked because Bennett was using the GB team as an England team. 

True. GB was a farce but lets humour those who see it as a pinnacle.

[Saint Toppy]

5 minutes ago, stevevalerugby said:

Your not expanding the game all you do is turn off decent players in Wales who can’t be bothered because when it comes to the big tournaments players who can’t get into the Australian or English teams decide maybe they are Welsh after all.  All you are doing is using Wales and other 2nd tier nations for game time until you might decide they are good enough for tier 1 sides.  How are tier 2 sides ever going to compete if you keep taking their best players away.  Once you have represented a country once then you should be attached to that country for the rest of your career then you will see who wants to play for who.  
 

If you did that then people like Knowles & Currie would never put their hand up for the Tier 2 nations in the first place, because players like this who are playing at top SL clubs know they stand a good chance of an England call up at some point in the future. The Tier 2 teams then miss out completely on being able to call on these players so they will never be able to compete.

[nadera78]

28 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I agree in principle, I'm just not sure that would fix this problem. I think it would just mean that Ben Currie would never have played for Ireland in the first place, nor Knowles for Wales. 

But this doesn't feel like a decent place for us to be 25 years after our first proper expanded World Cup.

I take the point, generally, but I guess I'm particularly disappointed here because Knowles played for Wales through the age grades. It's not like he was England Academy, then Wales, then England again.

[Tommygilf]

Wales, and to an extent Ireland and Scotland, need to look at Tonga as a sort of blueprint. 

What's clear from this and other cases is that England, GB&I and the RFL that oversees them are also critically important to the growth and success of Wales and the other home nations.

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly the same as the Welsh and Scottish players too then. A better question would have been when was the last high profile Welsh game. Thats either the 9s (2019) or the WC (2017).

Is that really what you meant?

Or was it the England kit had not been on show in the international areana, I was just stating the obvious to your comment that England had not played I would say the team would not have looked not much different to that which was selected for GB, I would also say it meant no difference whatsoever in the thoughts of the Kiwi, Tongan or PNG representative player's what shirt the opposition wore.

[Rupert Prince]

2 hours ago, nadera78 said:

What does it do to aid expansion if Morgan Knowles plays for Wales whilst still young and developing, only to switch to England once he's fulfilled his potential? Same for when Frizell switched to Australia? Or John Kear recently begging Bradman Best to play for Wales for a year or two before he gets picked for Australia? 

Shaun Wane has made some very strong comments about not picking Aussies for England, but he's quite happy to pick someone who has already played for another country? 

Knowles was born in Barrow-in-Furness. His junior football was there (?) and first played for St Helens at the age of 18/19.

He is as English as you can get.  Hastings as an example was born in Wollongong.

If the rules are as they are then it's hard luck all round.  What the rules should be is a different matter 

[DavidM]

But first and foremost I’m a really proud Cumbrian. I was born in Barrow and I’m English and I want to play for my country.
 

morgan knowles that is , not me

[Toby Chopra]

24 minutes ago, stevevalerugby said:

Your not expanding the game all you do is turn off decent players in Wales who can’t be bothered because when it comes to the big tournaments players who can’t get into the Australian or English teams decide maybe they are Welsh after all.  All you are doing is using Wales and other 2nd tier nations for game time until you might decide they are good enough for tier 1 sides.  How are tier 2 sides ever going to compete if you keep taking their best players away.  Once you have represented a country once then you should be attached to that country for the rest of your career then you will see who wants to play for who.  
 

This would be a reasonable point if there were any evidence of it happening? Is there? Genuine question. 

Are Welsh Rugby league players quitting the sport, or declining to make themselves available for the national team because heritage players have been selected? 

I've not seen evidence of that. It's a balance of course, and recently Ireland shifted that balance to include a few more domestically developed players, but the Welsh team has both, and seems to be working as well with it. 

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Is that really what you meant?

Or was it the England kit had not been on show in the international areana, I was just stating the obvious to your comment that England had not played I would say the team would not have looked not much different to that which was selected for GB, I would also say it meant no difference whatsoever in the thoughts of the Kiwi, Tongan or PNG representative player's what shirt the opposition wore.

Yes it was. England haven't played since 2018.

Ironically GB showed a bit of the daftness of all that. That was a clear opportunity for the likes of Knowles to play at a higher level than Wales could offer right now. Yet because we had an England coach determined to use it as an England series we saw none of it.

[Pickford]

Big loss for Wales. Obviously in picking a heritage player, especially one the quality of Knowles, there is the risk that this might happen. But having represented U16s, U19s and then into the full national side i'm sure Wales thought he was committed. That's not the usual route a heritage player takes.

Just had a look at the Wales RL and Gareth Kear twitter pages and there doesn't seem to be any response. Be interesting to see what they say about it. Wales shouldn't be a stepping stone for anyone.

It's a difficult situation for Tier 2 nations regarding heritage players. Short term quality or long term commitment? Personally, I'd rather have someone like Jordan James for 30 games than Morgan Knowles for 4.

 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Knowles was born in Barrow-in-Furness. His junior football was there (?) and first played for St Helens at the age of 18/19.

He is as English as you can get.

Missed out the crucial "played for Wales through the junior ranks and has a Welsh mother" there. That somewhat questions your "as English as you can get" statement.

There's parallels with Jack Grealish and Declan Rice here.