England Team if you were picking it now

[Dunbar]

9 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Bit unfair on Senior- he was top class and probably the best we have had for 30 years.

I agree Senior was a good centre but it's kind of the point. I can't remember him ever standing out at international level and probably demonstrates where we have been with outside backs.

And Paul Newlove is head and shoulders the best centre we have had in the last 30 years.

[The Rocket]

11 hours ago, Mr Frisky said:

Bit unfair on Senior- he was top class and probably the best we have had for 30 years.

I can remember getting up very early to watch those Test matches in the early 2000`s and although Senior was always a threat out wide with his hard direct running style my favourite was Martin Gleeson, who hardly ever seems to get a mention, but I`m sure made more breaks and always looked dangerous with his size and footwork.

[Davo5]

16 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Newman, Gildart, Percival, King would be my 4. If in doubt, always throw in an SL player. The Aussies won’t know them and certainly won’t rate them, and we only have to surprise them once to get the prize. There has never been any point picking players whom they know inside out, as Jack Reed perfectly illustrated. 

Two of those haven’t played this season,another has never shown Test quality and it’s 2021 not 1961,do you seriously think the likes of Meninga,Maguiire etc won’t be watching footage of players their teams will be facing.

[Dunbar]

14 hours ago, Scubby said:

We are not exactly blessed with options. These are decent club players but none are going to cause the big teams any headaches. Gildart is not really kicking on from early promise and Percival is nowhere near international standard. This is why Farnworth should be considered for the squad. He is playing well in a higher standard competition albeit with a struggling club. I can't remember a poorer set of outside backs available to England.

The development (or lack of development) of English outside backs is a bit of mystery.

I have a pet project of seeing how the 2018 England Academy and Australian Schoolboys sides have developed since the English kids won the series 2-0 in late 2018.  We are now two and a half years later.

The English backline in the second game of that series was Tom Nisbet, Cameron Scott, Harry Newman and Innes Senior.

The Australian backline was Jason Saab, Bradman Best, Star To'a and Stephen Crichton.

Now, at the end of that game I would have said the English prospects were every bit as good as the Aussies - if not better.  And now you look at those two backlines and you would say the Aussies are miles better.

I am sure that all of these individual players can be explained but this seems to happen time and again and cannot just be coincidence.

[Harry Stottle]

17 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The development (or lack of development) of English outside backs is a bit of mystery.

I have a pet project of seeing how the 2018 England Academy and Australian Schoolboys sides have developed since the English kids won the series 2-0 in late 2018.  We are now two and a half years later.

The English backline in the second game of that series was Tom Nisbet, Cameron Scott, Harry Newman and Innes Senior.

The Australian backline was Jason Saab, Bradman Best, Star To'a and Stephen Crichton.

Now, at the end of that game I would have said the English prospects were every bit as good as the Aussies - if not better.  And now you look at those two backlines and you would say the Aussies are miles better.

I am sure that all of these individual players can be explained but this seems to happen time and again and cannot just be coincidence.

Interesting Dunbar, I have done pretty much the same on the '14 visit of the Australian Schoolboys, this was the lineup for the 2nd Test at Leigh Sports Village, comments PLEASE.

England Academy (professional club and community club in brackets)

Ash Golding (Leeds Rhinos, Oulton Raiders)
Jack Johnson (Warrington Wolves, Saddleworth Rangers)
Ash Handley (Leeds Rhinos, Stanley Rangers)
Toby King (Warrington Wolves, Meltham All Blacks)
Jack Logan (Hull FC, Cottingham Tigers)
Jordan Abdul (Hull FC, Skirlaugh)
Joe Keyes (London Broncos, Medway Dragons)
Ted Chapelhow (Widnes Vikings, West Bank Bears)
Robbie Ward (Leeds Rhinos, Oulton Raiders)
Tyler Dickinson (Huddersfield Giants, Siddal)
Oliver Davies (St Helens, Orrell St James)
Jansin Turgut – Captain (Hull FC, West Hull)
Sam Wilde (Warrington Wolves, Shevington Sharks)

Interchange
Luke Waterworth (Wigan Warriors, Ince Rose Bridge)
Will Maher (Castleford Tigers, Ulverston)
Mikey Wood (Huddersfield Giants, Slaithwaite Saracens)
Elliot Minchella (Leeds Rhinos, West Bowling)

Australian Schoolboys (professional club and school in brackets)

Gideon Gela (North Queensland Cowboys, Kirwan State High School Townsville QLD)
Connor Cox (Morayfield State High School, Morayfield QLD)
Braden Robson (Newcastle Knights, St Francis Xavier College Hamilton NSW)
Keenan Yorston (Cronulla Sharks, Wavell State High School Wavell Heights QLD)
Latrell Mitchell (Sydney City Roosters, Marist College Pagewood NSW)
Brock Lamb (Newcastle Knights, St Mary’s College Maitland NSW)
Jack Cogger (Newcastle Knights, Mackillop Catholic College Warnervale NSW)
Hame Sele (St George Illawarra Dragons, Kingsgrove High School Kingsgrove NSW)
Jayden Brailey (Cronulla Sharks, Acquinas Catholic College Manai NSW)
Tom Amone (Parramatta Eela, The Hills Sports High School Seven Hills NSW)
Tyrell Fuiaomano (Parramatta Eels, Patrician Brothers College Blacktown NSW)
Ash Nisbet (Cronulla Sharks, St Gregory’s College Cambeltown NSW)
Ray Stone (West Tigers, Wollindilly Anglican College Bargo NSW)

Interchange
Jacob Liddle (West Tigers, Wadalba Community School Wadalba NSW)
Keegan Hipgrave (Brisbane Broncos, Palm Beach Currumbin State High School Palm Beach QLD)
Jacob Host (St George Illawarra Dragons, De la Salle College Revesby Heights NSW) Oliver Clark (Penrith Panthers, Terra Sancta College Schofields NSW)

England 28 (T: Handley, Logan, Turgut, Ward, Johnson; G: Abdul 4; Yellow: Ward)
Australia 14 (T: Mitchell, Nisbet, Liddle; G: Lamb; Yellow: Amone).

Attendance: 1,197

[Scubby]

29 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

The development (or lack of development) of English outside backs is a bit of mystery.

I have a pet project of seeing how the 2018 England Academy and Australian Schoolboys sides have developed since the English kids won the series 2-0 in late 2018.  We are now two and a half years later.

The English backline in the second game of that series was Tom Nisbet, Cameron Scott, Harry Newman and Innes Senior.

The Australian backline was Jason Saab, Bradman Best, Star To'a and Stephen Crichton.

Now, at the end of that game I would have said the English prospects were every bit as good as the Aussies - if not better.  And now you look at those two backlines and you would say the Aussies are miles better.

I am sure that all of these individual players can be explained but this seems to happen time and again and cannot just be coincidence.

Zac Cini was also in those Australian schoolboy teams and played today for Wests. Looked class. I don't know either, it must be the development systems and pure competition for places. 

[GeordieSaint]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Zac Cini was also in those Australian schoolboy teams and played today for Wests. Looked class. I don't know either, it must be the development systems and pure competition for places. 

Opportunity too? Feel at times we are a little slow/unwilling to give opportunities; especially at some clubs. 

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

Zac Cini was also in those Australian schoolboy teams and played today for Wests. Looked class. I don't know either, it must be the development systems and pure competition for places. 

Yes, it was seeing Cini debut that prompted me to look at the teams again.

[Scubby]

Just now, Dunbar said:

Yes, it was seeing Cini debut that prompted me to look at the teams again.

Could you imagine those teams lining up again 2-3 years on?  

[Dunbar]

2 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Zac Cini was also in those Australian schoolboy teams and played today for Wests. Looked class. I don't know either, it must be the development systems and pure competition for places. 

But the competition for places is a little paradoxical isn't it?  We all agree that the NRL has access to many more quality players than we do but Stephen Crichton, Bradman Best and Jason Saab are all now first choices whereas you would only really but Harry Newman in that category for us with Nisbet and Scott lucky to get a game. 

Who were the Panthers or Knights players they replaced?  It doesn't really matter, they simply choose the best players - whether they have played 5 first team games or 200.

[Dunbar]

18 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Could you imagine those teams lining up again 2-3 years on?  

It would be a very interesting game.  The English forwards have gone on to play far more first team games - the likes of Morgan Smithies, Ethan Havard, Oliver Wilson, Tom Holroyd, Sam Walters etc while the Aussie backs are developing faster.  Very few of the Aussie pack (if any) have played NRL.

Both have decent 7 halves Dearden and Smith

I would actually love to see those two teams play again.

[Scubby]

Just now, Dunbar said:

But the competition for places is a little paradoxical isn't it?  We all agree that the NRL has access to many more quality players than we do but Stephen Crichton, Bradman Best and Jason Saab are all now first choices whereas you would only really but Harry Newman in that category for us with Nisbet and Scott lucky to get a game. 

Who were the Panthers or Knights players they replaced?  It doesn't really matter, they simply choose the best players - whether they have played 5 first team games or 200.

Interesting that players like Paul Newlove, Shaun Edwards and Garry Connolly chucked in at 17 years old and then cement places. Particularly with outside backs, just get them in if they are good enough - they will sink or swim. Ash Goulding was a really good example, he was thrown in early and it was obvious he just didn't have that next level.

If you have an outstanding young player just get him in, start him on the wing, anything to fast track on his early potential. I remember Wigan kept Sam Tomkins kicking around for quite a long time when it was obvious he was top class. If they are good enough then they will have a longer peak if you give them experience.

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It would be a very interesting game.  The English forwards have gone on to play far more first team games - the likes of Morgan Smithies, Ethan Havard, Oliver Wilson, Tom Holroyd, Sam Walters etc while the Aussie backs are developing faster.  Very few of the Aussie back (if any) have played NRL.

Both have decent 7 halves Dearden and Smith

I would actually love to see those two teams play again.

It would show both systems a lot about what they are doing right and wrong.

[meast]

1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

The development (or lack of development) of English outside backs is a bit of mystery.

I have a pet project of seeing how the 2018 England Academy and Australian Schoolboys sides have developed since the English kids won the series 2-0 in late 2018.  We are now two and a half years later.

The English backline in the second game of that series was Tom Nisbet, Cameron Scott, Harry Newman and Innes Senior.

The Australian backline was Jason Saab, Bradman Best, Star To'a and Stephen Crichton.

Now, at the end of that game I would have said the English prospects were every bit as good as the Aussies - if not better.  And now you look at those two backlines and you would say the Aussies are miles better.

I am sure that all of these individual players can be explained but this seems to happen time and again and cannot just be coincidence.

Maybe because of the fact there is more money available in the Australasian game to attract better coaches could be a factor?

I don't get the obsession on here of comparing the British/European game to either/or the NRL, Rugby Union or Football, they are completely different and the Australasian game, players, coaches, finances, media profile etc shouldn't be used a benchmark or comparison tool to SLE

[Harry Stottle]

29 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Interesting that players like Paul Newlove, Shaun Edwards and Garry Connolly chucked in at 17 years old and then cement places. Particularly with outside backs, just get them in if they are good enough - they will sink or swim. Ash Goulding was a really good example, he was thrown in early and it was obvious he just didn't have that next level.

If you have an outstanding young player just get him in, start him on the wing, anything to fast track on his early potential. I remember Wigan kept Sam Tomkins kicking around for quite a long time when it was obvious he was top class. If they are good enough then they will have a longer peak if you give them experience.

This is where we miss a properly structured reserve League, young hopefuls would as part of their Rugby education be included against teams containing seasoned pro's when they would show their worth or otherwise for 1st team selection as I am sure the 3 you mentioned would have done.

[ELBOWSEYE]

4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I agree Senior was a good centre but it's kind of the point. I can't remember him ever standing out at international level and probably demonstrates where we have been with outside backs.

And Paul Newlove is head and shoulders the best centre we have had in the last 30 years.

A match at wigan were we beat the Aussies he certainly stood out in that game. Can't remember the year without a bit of research. 

[Scubby]

2 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

A match at wigan were we beat the Aussies he certainly stood out in that game. Can't remember the year without a bit of research. 

2004. Won 24-12 and actually topped the final tri nations table going into the final (which we will not mention)  

[ELBOWSEYE]

Just now, Scubby said:

2004

Cheers. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

Two of those haven’t played this season,another has never shown Test quality and it’s 2021 not 1961,do you seriously think the likes of Meninga,Maguiire etc won’t be watching footage of players their teams will be facing.

Is the World Cup next week? Blimey, that caught me by surprise. They won’t know our players inside out, like they will Farnworth. Moreover, Farnworth will know this himself. I doubt Meninga will bother, but Madge will take a look. I don’t why you’re in such a strop, it’s not as if the selectors are going to ask me. Every time we have had a bog average NRL player cos NRL lolz they have been anonymous. 

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

A match at wigan were we beat the Aussies he certainly stood out in that game. Can't remember the year without a bit of research. 

Fair enough.  I don't want people thinking I am slagging off Senior as he was a very good club centre and clearly our best choice for a long time.

[Dunbar]

On 23/04/2021 at 08:26, Exiled Wiganer said:

Could we pick Farnworth in both centre positions? He is managing to hold down a place in a rubbish NRL team, so, let’s face it, we would be privileged to have him grace these shores... he is a completely forgettable player, in a poor side, who wouldn’t be in any top 10 Aussie centres list. He doesn’t even hit Jack Reid standards and they are pretty low. We would be better off with any combination of Newman/Percival/Gildart, as they will be unknowns to the Aussies, who consider SL to be park level. 

 

18 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Newman, Gildart, Percival, King would be my 4. If in doubt, always throw in an SL player. The Aussies won’t know them and certainly won’t rate them, and we only have to surprise them once to get the prize. There has never been any point picking players whom they know inside out, as Jack Reed perfectly illustrated. 

Do you really think there is much advantage in picking players the Aussies won't know?

[OMEGA]

Money has ruined the youth structure in this country or you could argue the lack of it!

Collectively the Chairmen & CEOs of the Super League have voted to change the youth pathways  with money in mind rather than follow the advice of the experts who work on the coal face of youth development.

There was little wrong with U17s being run by the amateur game with an U19s being controlled by the Professional game and pd a genuine A-Team p/Reserves being a stepping stone to 1st Grade.

[Lowdesert]

4 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I agree Senior was a good centre but it's kind of the point. I can't remember him ever standing out at international level and probably demonstrates where we have been with outside backs.

And Paul Newlove is head and shoulders the best centre we have had in the last 30 years.

Are you forgetting Schofield?  Debut as a 19 year old.  Better centre than stand off, imo, as well.  I think he will scrape into the 30 years.  He seemed to score against the Aussies more often than not.

Senior would’ve scored more tries at international level than Newlove.  Not much between them though.  Both started international careers quite young too, maybe 19 or 20 years old.  So, head and shoulders? No.

 

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Lowdesert said:

Are you forgetting Schofield?  Debut as a 19 year old.  Better centre than stand off, imo, as well.  I think he will scrape into the 30 years.  He seemed to score against the Aussies more often than not.

Senior would’ve scored more tries at international level than Newlove.  Not much between them though.  Both started international careers quite young too, maybe 19 or 20 years old.  So, head and shoulders? No.

 

Yes, that is a good call.  I did think of Scofield but I thought he was a little earlier but looking at his profile he played internationally until '95.  He was one of the best of his generation, probably only behind Hanley in international quality.

As for Newlove and Senior, I think Newlove was miles better but these are all opinions.

[Davo5]

22 hours ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

NRLers = God, which is why Jack Reed is remembered so fondly (by, err, anybody?). 

You really should refrain from making things up.