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England Team if you were picking it now


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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I would be happy to see McShane get a go.  He is a very good 9 but happens to be in the one position where we have decent competition for places.

What I can't believe is that people still stick Hodgson in the 13/17.  It isn't just that Hodgson has played badly for England, it is that England play badly when Hodgson plays.  He slows the play down to walking pace and doesn't add any value to the national team at all.  His style may suit the way that Canberra play but is proven time and again it doesn't work for England.

McShane is fourth choice and rightly so. Roby, Clark and Hodgson are all far superior to him. 

That’s just plain lazy, for me. Hodgson is a very good nine and plays in a system that has worked very well for Canberra, to write him off because England don’t play that way is silly. Why don’t England play that way? If you’re starting Hodgson and Williams, that’s two key components in the Canberra spine and would be in the England spine, too. 

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Assuming all are fit - added a reserve in brackets, some were a struggle:

1. Tomkins (Hardaker)
2. Makinson (Manfredi)
3. Percival (Connor)
4. Gildart (Farnworth)
5. Johnstone (McGillvary)
6. Lomax (Widdop)
7. Williams (Gale)
8. Walmsley (Hill)
9. Clarke (Roby)
10. T Burgess (Philbin)
11. Whitehead (McMeeken)
12. Bateman (Whitley)
13. Knowles (O Loughlin)
 

14. Thompson (Sutton)
15. Watts (Graham)
16. Hodgson (McShane)
17. Farrell (Currie)

Edited by Chris22

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6 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

McShane is fourth choice and rightly so. Roby, Clark and Hodgson are all far superior to him. 

That’s just plain lazy, for me. Hodgson is a very good nine and plays in a system that has worked very well for Canberra, to write him off because England don’t play that way is silly. Why don’t England play that way? If you’re starting Hodgson and Williams, that’s two key components in the Canberra spine and would be in the England spine, too. 

Bennett tried to play that way and it didn't really work. Hodgson isn't some sort of talismanic legend of the game who you force an entire team around. You might as well not bother playing the likes of Walmsley et al with him at hooker because it's so slow from ruck to ball in hand that their strengths are nullified. Quick ball around the ruck with a hooker who can put doubt in the mind of the opposition is a better option for England IMO. That's a combo of Roby/Clarke at the minute. Probably just Clarke if you don't want a second hooker on the bench.

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51 minutes ago, DavidM said:

But we’ve got two of the best second rowers in the world 

And he’s right up there with them IMO. Having watched both Farrell and Bateman at Wigan for years, they’re different types of second rowers but Farrell is every bit as good. Doing it in the NRL does seem to give you an automatic billing and that’s fair enough but I’m convinced Faz would’ve been every bit as effective as those two down under. I think you could argue a fair case to say Farrell was comfortably a better superleague player than Whitehead but you can’t have anything but admiration for how he’s kicked on.

 

I’d be happy to see Bateman or Whitehead turn out at loose forward. They’re both capable of playing in the position, in fact I think it’s probably where Bateman will play for us next season.

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2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

I would be happy to see McShane get a go.  He is a very good 9 but happens to be in the one position where we have decent competition for places.

What I can't believe is that people still stick Hodgson in the 13/17.  It isn't just that Hodgson has played badly for England, it is that England play badly when Hodgson plays.  He slows the play down to walking pace and doesn't add any value to the national team at all.  His style may suit the way that Canberra play but is proven time and again it doesn't work for England.

I’m not disagreeing , it’s there to see , but I struggle with why this is . The things he apparently doesn’t do for England - slowing down play , not adding value are not evident at all for Canberra . The middle men like Papali etc have no concerns over his distribution or effectiveness and he adds lots of value to the team . In fact they’re a good percentage worse without him there . What ‘ style ‘ does he suit or doesn’t suit ? I find it a strange one . The guy is the second best hooker in the elite comp , over years of consistency , but he can’t gain any traction in the national side? Is it him , is it not . As I say I’m not arguing the intrinsic point but I do find it baffling as to the reasoning . And I’d still expect  him to be the hooker in the WC fitness n form permitting 

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6 minutes ago, DavidM said:

I’m not disagreeing , it’s there to see , but I struggle with why this is . The things he apparently doesn’t do for England - slowing down play , not adding value are not evident at all for Canberra . The middle men like Papali etc have no concerns over his distribution or effectiveness and he adds lots of value to the team . In fact they’re a good percentage worse without him there . What ‘ style ‘ does he suit or doesn’t suit ? I find it a strange one . The guy is the second best hooker in the elite comp , over years of consistency , but he can’t gain any traction in the national side? Is it him , is it not . As I say I’m not arguing the intrinsic point but I do find it baffling as to the reasoning . And I’d still expect  him to be the hooker in the WC fitness n form permitting 

The way I see it is that Hodgson has a tenancy to overplay sometimes. When he is at his most effective for Canberra he brings the forwards onto the ball well and manages their forward roll really well.

And when I have seem him play poorly for Canberra it is because he is trying to do too much and just gets in the way of every play... especially when he comes away from dummy half and tries to play a 7 or 13 type role which he is not good at.

The latter is how he plays for England. Overcomplicated and overtrying. Now he may have been told to play that way but it stifles any creativity we may have.

We have better options for quick distribution and effective running (Roby and Clark) and I would only play Hodgson if I were building my team around the way he plays. And I wouldn't do that so I would leave him out. 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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3 hours ago, DavidM said:

In fact they’re a good percentage worse without him there

It's interesting that across his two injury disrupted seasons (2018 and this year) the Raiders have a better win record without Hodgson than with him.

Edited by Dunbar

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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6 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

It's interesting that across his two injury disrupted seasons (2018 and this year) the Raiders have a better win record without Hodgson than with him.

You wouldn’t argue though about them being a better side though with him in it and about his importance to how they set up ?

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28 minutes ago, DavidM said:

You wouldn’t argue though about them being a better side though with him in it and about his importance to how they set up ?

If you had asked me that 6 weeks ago I wouldn't have hesitated to say yes.  But the Raiders have looked pretty slick recently with the dummy halves getting fast ball to Williams and Wighton and not overplaying their role.  Early in the year with Hodgson I thought they looked pretty clunky in attack.

I guess I would still put Hodgson back into that side but there is no guarantee that they would play better for it in my mind.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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Just now, Dunbar said:

If you had asked me that 6 weeks ago I wouldn't have hesitated to say yes.  But the Raiders have looked pretty slick recently with the dummy halves getting fast ball to Williams and Wighton and not overplaying their role.  Early in the year with Hodgson I thought they looked pretty clunky in attack.

I guess I would still put Hodgson back into that side but there is no guarantee that they would play better for it in my mind.

Fair enough . I’m not up to today’s games so I’ll leave it there 😂

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47 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If you had asked me that 6 weeks ago I wouldn't have hesitated to say yes.  But the Raiders have looked pretty slick recently with the dummy halves getting fast ball to Williams and Wighton and not overplaying their role.  Early in the year with Hodgson I thought they looked pretty clunky in attack.

I guess I would still put Hodgson back into that side but there is no guarantee that they would play better for it in my mind.

He strangles the life out of his halves whenever I watch him by hogging the ball or at best giving any service extremely late. He’s built an amazing reputation in Australia but how he’s done that I’m not too sure. He’s been dreadful for England and simply not in the class of a Roby or Daryl Clark. At Canberra this season the halves have come alive since his injury. George Williams started pretty well but at times was starved of ball and has kicked on massively since Hodgson picked up his injury and Jack Wighton has found top form. It’s no coincidence IMO. 

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10 minutes ago, WN83 said:

He strangles the life out of his halves whenever I watch him by hogging the ball or at best giving any service extremely late. He’s built an amazing reputation in Australia but how he’s done that I’m not too sure. He’s been dreadful for England and simply not in the class of a Roby or Daryl Clark. At Canberra this season the halves have come alive since his injury. George Williams started pretty well but at times was starved of ball and has kicked on massively since Hodgson picked up his injury and Jack Wighton has found top form. It’s no coincidence IMO. 

Yes, I tend to agree.  I have previously advocated that his style suits the Raiders but not England but as you say the Raiders havles are thriving at the moment with fast clean service from dummy half.

I will give the Raiders the benefit of the doubt that it was still early days with the 6/7/9 combination when Hodgson got injured but I would say as of today, the Raiders chances in the NRL this year are no worse without Hodgson in the team.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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39 minutes ago, WN83 said:

He strangles the life out of his halves whenever I watch him by hogging the ball or at best giving any service extremely late. He’s built an amazing reputation in Australia but how he’s done that I’m not too sure. He’s been dreadful for England and simply not in the class of a Roby or Daryl Clark. At Canberra this season the halves have come alive since his injury. George Williams started pretty well but at times was starved of ball and has kicked on massively since Hodgson picked up his injury and Jack Wighton has found top form. It’s no coincidence IMO. 

They made the grand final last year right ? He played all through that season didn’t he . He played all through 2016 when they came second , and was a stand out until they got nutted by Melbourne in the semis . He had injuries running through into 2018 and they dipped . Whatever he is or isn’t for England his contribution for the Raiders and worth they put on him there in their set up just can’t be questioned . Jack Wighton had top form all last year I’m pretty sure , Williams has been very good since restart . And an amazing reputation is built in Australia through performance , it’s no mystery ... especially as a Pom you’ve got to earn it . He has in that club and  competition through what he’s done on the park . 

Edited by DavidM
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Hodgson is excellent for Canberra but for whatever reason it has never meshed and translated with the other key players for England so he has always underwhelmed in the National jersey.

 

Graham and Hill are a long way past it at the very top level and we need to move on.

 

my pick

1. Tomkins (Hardaker)

2. Johnstone (Makinson)

3. Farnworth (Newman)

4. Gildart (Percival)

5. Marshall (Manfredi)

6. Trueman (Widdop)

7. Williams (Lomax)

8. Walmsley (Watts)

9. Clark (Hodgson)

10. Thompson (Philbin)

11. Currie (Whitley)

12. Whitehead (Jones)

13. Bateman (Knowles)

14. Connor (Hastings)

15. Sutton (Smithies)

16. Havard (Lees)

17. Tom Burgess (George Burgess)


Gone for size in the starting pack with lots of youthful mobile talent to come on as the game progresses who will be able to cope better with the new rules than hanging on to guys like Graham and Hill.

 

Bateman at 13 I feel will be his best position long term but he can slide back out to second row in case of injury with Havard and Sutton both athletic props capable of filling in at 13 as well.

 

Trueman offers step, pace and unpredictability with Clark and Williams they form a more dynamic spine than we have had for a long time. Tomkins at the back gives an extra playmaker to allow Trueman freedom to roam.

 

Marshall is a small risk defensively but has pace to burn that was lacking on the GB tour.

 

One position that will be treated differently by some is 14 which I went for a back who can cover 3 or more positions whereas others went for a true alternative hooker to spell the starter.

 

 

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27 minutes ago, DavidM said:

They made the grand final last year right ? He played all through that season didn’t he . He played all through 2016 when they came second , and was a stand out until they got nutted by Melbourne in the semis . He had injuries running through into 2018 and they dipped . Whatever he is or isn’t for England his contribution for the Raiders and worth they put on him there in their set up just can’t be questioned . Jack Wighton had top form all last year I’m pretty sure , Williams has been very good since restart . And an amazing reputation is built in Australia through performance , it’s no mystery ... especially as a Pom you’ve got to earn it . He has in that club and  competition through what he’s done on the park . 

I thought Batemans influence took them on a level last year and he’s doing it again now. He has been the major difference for them IMO. There’s no doubt Hodgson has cut a great career for himself at Canberra and he’s highly thought of down under but for me he’s hugely overrated. I can only judge it on watching him over here, in all his England games and in a good few Canberra games. He demands an integral role in that Canberra team, he literally takes it and puts a lot on his own shoulders but I’m not convinced he’s got the talent for that. Maybe it works well at Canberra because guys like Wighton and CNK aren’t hugely creative and are more strike players but when I see an England side with Widdop, Tomkins, Williams, Lomax etc in it, I just want to see them with their hands on the ball as much as possible and they never get that with Hodgson in the team. 
 

Roby is sadly very nearly at the end but I’d have Clark in ahead of Hodgson all day long. I’d also put McShane in ahead of him. It’s a decent debate on who or who shouldn’t be in but I honestly can’t see Wane picking him. Wanes hookers get quick ball to the forwards and halves and Hodgson does not. 

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On 22/08/2020 at 06:10, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Are you seriously suggesting Adam O’Brien when we John Hodgson, Daz Clarke and James Roby?

Hodgson has been one of the best hookers in the NRL for the last 5 years.

Jake Wardle may have potential but he lacks size and physical presence at the moment, he’d be thrown around like a rag doll at top level Internationals.

I'm suggesting O'Brien, on form deserves to be mentioned, the other 3 are established internationals, but I'm pretty sure AOB could hold his own, I'm not saying he should be picked, but if you want someone out of the blue, which was what I was replying to, then he fits the bit, on form, young, still developing, he's quick, strong, clever, brave, all the attributes you want from a 9 isn't he?

As for Wardle, he's as good as, if not better than Newman, he's a far better all round player than Welsby, he tackles well above his weight, he is a deceptively strong runner and has good upper body strength, he his fast, good hands, can kick, can play anywhere in the back and in the halves.

The only reason guys like this aren't mentioned in threads like this is because they play for Huddersfield, if they played for Leeds, Wigan, Saints or Wire they'd be getting tossed off over, like the young lads at those clubs are.

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Thinking about this in a different way and taking into account the players Wane has worked with and also the type of player he likes. 
 

1/ Tomkins

2/ Makinson

3/ Gildart

4/ Percival

5/ Johnstone 

6/ Williams

7/ Trueman

8/ Thompson 

9/ McShane

10/ Walmsley

11/ Bateman

12/ Whitehead

13/ knowles

14/ Clarke

15/ Sutton

16/ Currie

17/ Watts

There are certain players that I don’t think fit with Wanes style/thinking. The Burgess twins and Lomax to start with don’t really have enough mongrel in them for what Wanes looking for.

On the opposite of that there are players who have this and my end up a surprise inclusion. Like Philbin,Smithies,Griffin and evening Milner at Cas. I don’t think he’ll pick all of them but wouldn’t be surprised if he picked a few just to get their energy around the camp  

 

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26 minutes ago, meast said:

I'm suggesting O'Brien, on form deserves to be mentioned, the other 3 are established internationals, but I'm pretty sure AOB could hold his own, I'm not saying he should be picked, but if you want someone out of the blue, which was what I was replying to, then he fits the bit, on form, young, still developing, he's quick, strong, clever, brave, all the attributes you want from a 9 isn't he?

As for Wardle, he's as good as, if not better than Newman, he's a far better all round player than Welsby, he tackles well above his weight, he is a deceptively strong runner and has good upper body strength, he his fast, good hands, can kick, can play anywhere in the back and in the halves.

The only reason guys like this aren't mentioned in threads like this is because they play for Huddersfield, if they played for Leeds, Wigan, Saints or Wire they'd be getting tossed off over, like the young lads at those clubs are.

Wardle, Newman and Welsby are all too lightweight for internationals at the moment, they need to pile on the muscle before they stand a chance of competing.
 

Up against the likes of Latrell Mitchell, David Fifita, Viliame Kikau, Vunivalu, Sivo, Joseph Manu, Ken Maumalo, Corey Oates, Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs how do you think these 3 would get on?

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5 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Wardle, Newman and Welsby are all too lightweight for internationals at the moment, they need to pile on the muscle before they stand a chance of competing.
 

Up against the likes of Latrell Mitchell, David Fifita, Viliame Kikau, Vunivalu, Sivo, Joseph Manu, Ken Maumalo, Corey Oates, Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs how do you think these 3 would get on?

Why do they need muscle?

The way the game is going then speed, skill and quick thinking is the way to go, not muscles?

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12 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Wardle, Newman and Welsby are all too lightweight for internationals at the moment, they need to pile on the muscle before they stand a chance of competing.
 

Up against the likes of Latrell Mitchell, David Fifita, Viliame Kikau, Vunivalu, Sivo, Joseph Manu, Ken Maumalo, Corey Oates, Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs how do you think these 3 would get on?

I don't see Wardle and Newman being too light for international rugby - they both break enough tackles to show their strength.

Two of the young breakout centres in the NRL this year are Zac Lomax and Stephen Crichton.  They are both tall and lean in the same mould as Newman and Wardle and they play against the players you name every week and stand out.

The other young centre in the NRL to stand out this year is Bradman Best and he is shorter, stockier and a real power house.  It shows there is a place for all shapes and sizes if you are good enough.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

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13 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Wardle, Newman and Welsby are all too lightweight for internationals at the moment, they need to pile on the muscle before they stand a chance of competing.
 

Up against the likes of Latrell Mitchell, David Fifita, Viliame Kikau, Vunivalu, Sivo, Joseph Manu, Ken Maumalo, Corey Oates, Daniel Tupou and Kotoni Staggs how do you think these 3 would get on?

Only 3 of those players are centres,there are 16 stone forwards in the NRL who get run over by the likes of  Fifita &,Kikau

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