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Sir Kevin Sinfield

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21 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

I’m sure anyone registered and regularly playing 7’s or touch for a club would count,  why wouldn’t they? I’d think they’d make up a minority of the numbers though. I don’t know of anywhere I could go to play 7’s or touch.
 

Do you think the World Cup attendance figures doubling are fake too? 
 

Does anyone have any figures for Rugby League?

Maybe Matt Hancock is measuring those figures and if someone play 15 a-side, 7 a-side, touch and tag, they are counted four times.🤨

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On 27/08/2020 at 23:17, The Rocket said:

They got sprung doing the same thing with cricket over here . One journalist did an expose and found some players getting counted 8 times, school, weekends, representative team, T20, etc.

etc. The one person counted over and over.

I will bet my bottom dollar union have done the same thing , look sideways at a union ball and your in !

I detailed on another thread how a Canterbury Bulldogs women`s player who`d also played AFL was being portrayed by NRL journalists as belonging to Aussie rules even though she`d been an RL junior and come through the Bulldogs` under-18s Tarsha Gale system. There`s now a longer feature about her on NRL.com which again mentions AFL a lot but gives no info on her RL background. Anyone watching would assume she was an AFL girl who`d only recently started playing RL.

The RU or AFL playing numbers could be seen as a statistical version of the above story where RU or AFL people manipulate facts to get as many players as possible counted as their own. And in this they are frequently aided and abetted by NRL journalists.

I still can`t work out why our journalists do this. Are they just plain stupid? Don`t do their research? Or is there something psychological/ sociological going on?

If RL published massaged figures for their participation rates, RU journalists would depict it as a small, insignificant sport desperately trying to inflate its importance. If RU publish massaged figures for their participation rates, and RL fans question them, RU journalists would depict it as a small, insignificant sport desperately trying to diminish the importance of a rival. It`s a neat trick. But it`s easier to pull off with help from useful idiots like those at NRL.com.

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9 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

I detailed on another thread how a Canterbury Bulldogs women`s player who`d also played AFL was being portrayed by NRL journalists as belonging to Aussie rules even though she`d been an RL junior and come through the Bulldogs` under-18s Tarsha Gale system. There`s now a longer feature about her on NRL.com which again mentions AFL a lot but gives no info on her RL background. Anyone watching would assume she was an AFL girl who`d only recently started playing RL.

The RU or AFL playing numbers could be seen as a statistical version of the above story where RU or AFL people manipulate facts to get as many players as possible counted as their own. And in this they are frequently aided and abetted by NRL journalists.

I still can`t work out why our journalists do this. Are they just plain stupid? Don`t do their research? Or is there something psychological/ sociological going on?

If RL published massaged figures for their participation rates, RU journalists would depict it as a small, insignificant sport desperately trying to inflate its importance. If RU publish massaged figures for their participation rates, and RL fans question them, RU journalists would depict it as a small, insignificant sport desperately trying to diminish the importance of a rival. It`s a neat trick. But it`s easier to pull off with help from useful idiots like those at NRL.com.

The thing I cannot understand for the life of me is how union can lay any claim to touch or tag competitions.

In the union version surely they must have unlimited possession and how do they explain the play the ball. Even the motion of rolling the ball back without touching the foot is still far more reminiscent of a play the ball than a ruck. There is also the little matter of the 10 metre rule.

The phenomenon of RL journalists incorrectly reporting a players sporting lineage I have always attributed to perhaps a little bit of an inferiority complex suffered by our sport as a whole. The other side of the coin in this situation is the rather endearing modesty and humility that our game displays when compared to the hubris of other sporting codes. Especially our main rival. And especially when we know and most likely they know as well that our best would `wipe the floor` with their best.

 

 

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17 hours ago, The Rocket said:

The thing I cannot understand for the life of me is how union can lay any claim to touch or tag competitions.

In the union version surely they must have unlimited possession and how do they explain the play the ball. Even the motion of rolling the ball back without touching the foot is still far more reminiscent of a play the ball than a ruck. There is also the little matter of the 10 metre rule.

The phenomenon of RL journalists incorrectly reporting a players sporting lineage I have always attributed to perhaps a little bit of an inferiority complex suffered by our sport as a whole. The other side of the coin in this situation is the rather endearing modesty and humility that our game displays when compared to the hubris of other sporting codes. Especially our main rival. And especially when we know and most likely they know as well that our best would `wipe the floor` with their best.

 

 

There was something called Tag 20 a few years back. The name must have been copied from cricket T20. Not sure what`s happened to it, but it purported to be a non-contact form of RU.

I saw a news item where they were trying to introduce it into outback NSW and QLD, and a bloke from the ARU explained that it was aimed at generating interest in RU amongst communities where RL was dominant. They showed a bit of play. A player was tagged, placed the ball on the ground, played it back with his foot, with a dummy-half behind and marker in front. Cynics might be wondering on what planet this is a version of RU. Well apparently, there were two bonus boxes in the corners of the in-goal rather than one in the middle.

In a way you have to admire the nerve. Comparisons can be invidious but the modus operandi would appear to be "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it".

 

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17 minutes ago, unapologetic pedant said:

There was something called Tag 20 a few years back. The name must have been copied from cricket T20. Not sure what`s happened to it, but it purported to be a non-contact form of RU.

I saw a news item where they were trying to introduce it into outback NSW and QLD, and a bloke from the ARU explained that it was aimed at generating interest in RU amongst communities where RL was dominant. They showed a bit of play. A player was tagged, placed the ball on the ground, played it back with his foot, with a dummy-half behind and marker in front. Cynics might be wondering on what planet this is a version of RU. Well apparently, there were two bonus boxes in the corners of the in-goal rather than one in the middle.

In a way you have to admire the nerve. Comparisons can be invidious but the modus operandi would appear to be "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it".

 

Couple of key lines in there, "not sure what happened to it", I suggest it went the way of the Dodo or maybe more relevant would be the Thylacine.

The other " on what planet ",  I have as you would have, heard theories of infinite alternative universes, the cynics know it is out there they just do not know the planets name yet.

I am not familiar with the " bonus boxes" and their purpose. Maybe you could enlighten me. But union SH do love their bonus points.

At the end of the day it is hard to imagine any form of Touch/Tag that does not bear far more resemblance to League rather than union and it is a travesty that especially in your part of the world that this light contact version of the sport is not used as a potent tool to spread greater familiarity and engagement with our sport. The shanghaiing of touch /tag by union to be more an advert for their game than ours is a little disillusioning.

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11 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Tag and touch isn't Rugby 

If it helps with getting more funding for RL it doesn't matter? 

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Just now, Tommygilf said:

If it helps with getting more funding for RL it doesn't matter? 

Tag and touch isn't Rugby of either code 

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

Tag and touch isn't Rugby of either code 

Your opinion on the validity of it as a form of game is irrelevant, is there a playing base and where does the government funding go? 

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4 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

If touch/tag rugby isn’t rugby, is 5 a side football football? 

I'd suggest yes , imo it has enough of the full 11 a side aspects to be considered football 

Tag and touch doesn't include one of the most fundamental parts of Rugby , the physical competition between players , so for me , it isn't rugby 

Is it a way to introduce juniors to the skills required to play the full sized game ? , Perhaps yes , I've witnessed tag tournaments in NZ where it is used as pre season warm ups featuring both Union and League players competing together 

 

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Just now, GUBRATS said:

I'd suggest yes , imo it has enough of the full 11 a side aspects to be considered football 

Tag and touch doesn't include one of the most fundamental parts of Rugby , the physical competition between players , so for me , it isn't rugby 

Is it a way to introduce juniors to the skills required to play the full sized game ? , Perhaps yes , I've witnessed tag tournaments in NZ where it is used as pre season warm ups featuring both Union and League players competing together 

 

5 a side doesnt allow shooting inside the box, anyone but the goalkeeper to be inside the box, a full sized goal, 11 players, a full sized pitch, limited substitutions vs rolling subs.

If that can still be football then Tag and Touch can still be rugby.

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4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

5 a side doesnt allow shooting inside the box, anyone but the goalkeeper to be inside the box, a full sized goal, 11 players, a full sized pitch, limited substitutions vs rolling subs.

If that can still be football then Tag and Touch can still be rugby.

We could argue this one till the cows come home , as I put , the fundamental physical competition which is a huge part of rugby imo trump's any minor IMO differences in 5 a side 

Anyway I've a tree to cut down 

Edited by GUBRATS

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20 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Couple of key lines in there, "not sure what happened to it", I suggest it went the way of the Dodo or maybe more relevant would be the Thylacine.

The other " on what planet ",  I have as you would have, heard theories of infinite alternative universes, the cynics know it is out there they just do not know the planets name yet.

I am not familiar with the " bonus boxes" and their purpose. Maybe you could enlighten me. But union SH do love their bonus points.

At the end of the day it is hard to imagine any form of Touch/Tag that does not bear far more resemblance to League rather than union and it is a travesty that especially in your part of the world that this light contact version of the sport is not used as a potent tool to spread greater familiarity and engagement with our sport. The shanghaiing of touch /tag by union to be more an advert for their game than ours is a little disillusioning.

This year it`s hard to get a reliable sense of anything, but I`ve done a little research on Tag 20 and it is extant. In fact, there was a World Cup scheduled for this year in QLD, which has been cancelled. It seems to be mostly a NZ thing.

I`ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you`re not being comically salacious about "bonus boxes", at least not intentionally. These are areas of the in-goal where a try is worth an extra point. In forms of Tag other than Tag 20, the zone is in the middle.

You mustn`t have watched the World 9s (this was Tackle RL) at Bankwest last year. There was a bonus box behind the goalposts, which made a put-down therein worth 5 points. (I didn`t like the notion of a 5-point try for obvious reasons).

Your last paragraph more or less encapsulates everything I`ve advocated for Touch and Tag on various threads. Namely, that it should be  part of building the RL fanbase when not many people will acquire a connection with the game through playing Tackle because of its highly physical nature. All the more important in territories where media coverage of RL is limited, dire, or both. Such as the UK.

The thousands of Tag and Touch players in England regard what they play as a form of "Rugby". This means that, unless they live in a small number of Northern English towns, if they become a regular fan of Tackle "Rugby" it will be their nearest RU club or the England RU team. This despite playing games which, as you say, are unmistakeably forms of RL.

The reason for the above scenario is that the RFU know how to build a fanbase, the too-slow-to-catch-a-cold RFL do not.

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Speaking on the above points in about 3 weeks the only form of Rugby League that will be played outside of the Super League is X-league, currently you can play Touch (it's own sport) or Try Tag Rugby. As a chairman of a new club we are using the the above (X-league) to grow our member base and keep players interested and ball handling skills practiced. Yes it doesn't have 1 aspect of Rugby the full contact tackle but practically all other aspects are there. When people say that time old phrase of the "the games going soft"... It really isn't the RFL have the Try Tag Rugby and X-league brands that are linked to RFL development. Try Tag Rugby has massive festivals several times a year and leagues on several days a week, including a lot linked to the corporate market in London, most people play the non-contact form as they can't afford to get injured from a dodgy tackle etc. The non-contact forms offer well organised leagues and structures and other opportunities that you might not get with RL in the full contact form. There aren't many players that step up to RL or RU full contact but that is out of choice of them. 

On top of the work I was doing in setting up the full contact sides, I saw the value in particular in X-league due to the easy nature of the equipment needed and due to us playing under the same name as the open age, we are also putting the name of our first team out there too. When I am securing sponsorship we use the whole package, not just 1 team. 

Edited by HarrogateKnights
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3 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

This year it`s hard to get a reliable sense of anything, but I`ve done a little research on Tag 20 and it is extant. In fact, there was a World Cup scheduled for this year in QLD, which has been cancelled. It seems to be mostly a NZ thing.

I`ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you`re not being comically salacious about "bonus boxes", at least not intentionally. These are areas of the in-goal where a try is worth an extra point. In forms of Tag other than Tag 20, the zone is in the middle.

You mustn`t have watched the World 9s (this was Tackle RL) at Bankwest last year. There was a bonus box behind the goalposts, which made a put-down therein worth 5 points. (I didn`t like the notion of a 5-point try for obvious reasons).

Your last paragraph more or less encapsulates everything I`ve advocated for Touch and Tag on various threads. Namely, that it should be  part of building the RL fanbase when not many people will acquire a connection with the game through playing Tackle because of its highly physical nature. All the more important in territories where media coverage of RL is limited, dire, or both. Such as the UK.

The thousands of Tag and Touch players in England regard what they play as a form of "Rugby". This means that, unless they live in a small number of Northern English towns, if they become a regular fan of Tackle "Rugby" it will be their nearest RU club or the England RU team. This despite playing games which, as you say, are unmistakeably forms of RL.

The reason for the above scenario is that the RFU know how to build a fanbase, the too-slow-to-catch-a-cold RFL do not.

It is funny that when the subject of touch/tag football came up all those posts ago you and I discovered very quickly we were on the same wave length regarding its usefulness in promoting our version of the code. Particularly seeing the benefit of the reduced level of contact, vehicle for promoting physical fitness, ideal size for people to form teams from work etc. And of course its resemblance to the full contact version.

Having said all that I have never been a great fan of watching 7`s or 9`s and was genuinely unfamiliar with the `bonus box` system of allocating points for tries. Funny though that even in a version of the code with so many tries some are still worth more than others. Animal Farm springs to mind.

I was listening to an interview with an  American politician recently ( not one of the Trumpian variety ), who referred to a line that his father was fond of saying , " reality has a habit of intruding". It has become one of my favourites, in this age of `alternative facts` and hubris.  I refer to this because at the end of the day, no matter what code a touch/tag player has an allegiance to,  there can be no mistaking which of the two codes the shortened version most resembles.

Edited by The Rocket

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22 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

Tag and touch doesn't include one of the most fundamental parts of Rugby , the physical competition between players , so for me , it isn't rugby 

 

 

Well what is it then? Its definitely not tennis or cricket or golf!

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21 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

Speaking on the above points in about 3 weeks the only form of Rugby League that will be played outside of the Super League is X-league, currently you can play Touch (it's own sport) or Try Tag Rugby. As a chairman of a new club we are using the the above (X-league) to grow our member base and keep players interested and ball handling skills practiced. Yes it doesn't have 1 aspect of Rugby the full contact tackle but practically all other aspects are there. When people say that time old phrase of the "the games going soft"... It really isn't the RFL have the Try Tag Rugby and X-league brands that are linked to RFL development. Try Tag Rugby has massive festivals several times a year and leagues on several days a week, including a lot linked to the corporate market in London, most people play the non-contact form as they can't afford to get injured from a dodgy tackle etc. The non-contact forms offer well organised leagues and structures and other opportunities that you might not get with RL in the full contact form. There aren't many players that step up to RL or RU full contact but that is out of choice of them. 

On top of the work I was doing in setting up the full contact sides, I saw the value in particular in X-league due to the easy nature of the equipment needed and due to us playing under the same name as the open age, we are also putting the name of our first team out there too. When I am securing sponsorship we use the whole package, not just 1 team. 

Other than giving Try Tag Rugby (League?) a platform to advertise at Magic Weekend, I`m not aware of the RFL doing anything to connect Tag specifically to League, either centrally or via the clubs, pro and community.

Virtually all the outward signs of TTR in London have a Union feel. In any team photo if a player is wearing League merchandise it`s usually an Aussie. Everyone else is bedecked in RU clobber. There should have been an effort to have all these organised Leagues affiliated with the Broncos or Skolars or the London community clubs. Similar to the junior Leagues of NRL clubs.

 

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20 hours ago, The Rocket said:

It is funny that when the subject of touch/tag football came up all those posts ago you and I discovered very quickly we were on the same wave length regarding its usefulness in promoting our version of the code. Particularly seeing the benefit of the reduced level of contact, vehicle for promoting physical fitness, ideal size for people to form teams from work etc. And of course its resemblance to the full contact version.

Having said all that I have never been a great fan of watching 7`s or 9`s and was genuinely unfamiliar with the `bonus box` system of allocating points for tries. Funny though that even in a version of the code with so many tries some are still worth more than others. Animal Farm springs to mind.

I was listening to an interview with an  American politician recently ( not one of the Trumpian variety ), who referred to a line that his father was fond of saying , " reality has a habit of intruding". It has become one of my favourites, in this age of `alternative facts` and hubris.  I refer to this because at the end of the day, no matter what code a touch/tag player has an allegiance to,  there can be no mistaking which of the two codes the shortened version most resembles.

I think Union 7s is superficial garbage. League 9s has more substance to it, particularly in certain junior grades.

Worth saying too that the non-contact forms don`t amount to much as spectator sports. That`s not the point of them. They`re ways of addressing the fact that Tackle RL will never be a mass participation sport like Soccer. As Harrogate Knights sets out we have to be offering as many alternative versions to attract interest as are possible or affordable.

In Aus I`ve heard many lifelong NRL fans say their club allegiance dates to when they or a family member played in the club`s junior League. This means of forging a loyalty can be as effective with non-contact forms as with Tackle. The NSWRL have started to exploit such opportunities through "Monarch Blues Tag" which is mainly metropolitan, and Ladies League Tag in some country groups.

Tag is especially popular in Ireland. About 5 to 10 years ago, they used a "Rollball", i.e. tagged player rolled the ball between their legs. This is surmise, but I suspect this was to distance it from RL, since it was supported by the IRFU and largely played through RU clubs.

All fine, so long as their only international fixtures were against GB. However, as Tag grew, and games against Southern Hemisphere teams became possible, this meant playing Oztag or NZTFI teams who used a proper League PTB with the foot. Not just Aus and NZ, but also the Pacific Island teams and Aussie heritage players representing China, Vietnam, Lebanon and others. So when the Irish played in the 2015 Tag World Cup on the Sunshine Coast they had to fall in line with the SH. Likewise, the British.

I don`t know if there was some sort of power struggle, but ever since, Irish Tag has domestically played the ball with the foot, and they seem to be organisationally less connected to the IRFU.

 

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How on earth the RFL have not connected these games to the organisation beggars belief.

These are our potential live and television audiences.

Allowing the dark side to usurp these players/fans is at best, utterly inept and at worst criminally negligent. 

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