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State of Origin may permanently move to end of season


eal

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3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I'm not reading anything into that.  You see for yourself that England played for the Ashes before that 1946 tour, not Great Britain.

589204409_1937AshesProgramCover.jpg.0f7672c4a11f32aee78706e153ba956a.jpg

As this shows in 1924 https://www.amazon.co.uk/Northern-Lions-Tour-Australia-Zealand/dp/1973510170, it was the "Northern Lions" as in "Northern" Union. In 1932 the badge clearly represents Scotland and Wales as well as England, which again remember was synonymous with Britain as a name.

http://www.rugbyrelics.com/info/sport-wales/jim-sullivan.htm The facts and artifacts highlighted here show how it was GB in 1927 and 1928. And that in 1933 an individual was able to play for Wales and England within the same week - suggesting at best a laxness in the rules from the RFL. Essentially it seems they called the team whatever they felt like most at the time and treated it as a representation side of the league rather than an blood and soil national team.

Only in the post war period do we see a consistency of terminology and even then as now you see Aussie commentators mixing up GB and England. That's a shame but not a crisis and is part of a much larger legacy of "British" being used by Englishmen who wanted to claim a piece of the greatness of Welsh and Scotsmen when it suited but refer to themselves as English the rest of the time.

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13 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

There's no interpretation needed, it's a fact, and we can't go about changing it until we accept that it is. 

 

13 hours ago, Davo5 said:

It’s not an interpretation,it’s a sad fact H

I would strongly suggest that had we been under normal circumstances - No Covid - and the test series was going ahead this year, those playing in the Origin series would have been no different to any others from previous years that they would be hoping through their performances to gain selection for the international team, be it on tour or at home.

Not many player's since Origin was concieved in '81ish have gained selection and not been involved in the origin series, it has been like a unofficial international trial series over the years.

If, and I strongly believe had we up here not not altered our season to summer aligning it to the Aussie season and therefore making 'proper' tours redundant the Ashes series would still be the pinnicle of Rugby League Football, and I would also add that our game in the Northern Hemisphere would be played at much higher level through more exposure to the Australian player's and game, it's a simple fact that you don't improve being continually the best in your own back yard, only by competing against those better more often do you improve. 

The circumstance of events has put the Origin series in my opinion in a position of higher standing than it would have acheived with the fan's and especially the player's if 'proper' tours had never been compromised, but I honestly still can't imagine that any Aussie player would gladly prefer a 'Blue' or 'Maroon' jumper other than the Iconic 'Green and Gold', yes they must feel a massive sense of pride being selected and wearing the uniform of their 'State', but in donning the colours of their country and all that means with the history, joining the same club as some of the Greats and Immortals of the sport, thinking what it means to their immediate family, having it confirmed that they are the best their country can offer, they must grow 10' tall at the mere thought of it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

 

I would strongly suggest that had we been under normal circumstances - No Covid - and the test series was going ahead this year, those playing in the Origin series would have been no different to any others from previous years that they would be hoping through their performances to gain selection for the international team, be it on tour or at home.

Not many player's since Origin was concieved in '81ish have gained selection and not been involved in the origin series, it has been like a unofficial international trial series over the years.

If, and I strongly believe had we up here not not altered our season to summer aligning it to the Aussie season and therefore making 'proper' tours redundant the Ashes series would still be the pinnicle of Rugby League Football, and I would also add that our game in the Northern Hemisphere would be played at much higher level through more exposure to the Australian player's and game, it's a simple fact that you don't improve being continually the best in your own back yard, only by competing against those better more often do you improve. 

The circumstance of events has put the Origin series in my opinion in a position of higher standing than it would have acheived with the fan's and especially the player's if 'proper' tours had never been compromised, but I honestly still can't imagine that any Aussie player would gladly prefer a 'Blue' or 'Maroon' jumper other than the Iconic 'Green and Gold', yes they must feel a massive sense of pride being selected and wearing the uniform of their 'State', but in donning the colours of their country and all that means with the history, joining the same club as some of the Greats and Immortals of the sport, thinking what it means to their immediate family, having it confirmed that they are the best their country can offer, they must grow 10' tall at the mere thought of it.

 

 

If you want to bring up the past here's 2 dates 1970 & 2006,they are the last time we won an ashes series and the last time we beat Australia in a test.

Until we actually start beating them thanks in part to Australian public & media interest a Kangeroo jumper will be a fringe benefit to playing well in Origin which sadly continues to be seen by most Australian players as the highest standard of rugby they can play.

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59 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

If you want to bring up the past here's 2 dates 1970 & 2006,they are the last time we won an ashes series and the last time we beat Australia in a test.

Until we actually start beating them thanks in part to Australian public & media interest a Kangeroo jumper will be a fringe benefit to playing well in Origin which sadly continues to be seen by most Australian players as the highest standard of rugby they can play.

The last encounter between the two was the '17 final what did Cameron Smith say after that game?

Anyway as I said before a matter of opinion, you cannot say "seen by most Australian player's, that is your opinion.

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On 02/09/2020 at 14:28, Hela Wigmen said:

I don’t think there’s any interest in NSW or QLD playing the likes of PNG and Fiji from anyone. 

You are wrong. I would be interested in a calendar once every two years of similar versions of...

week 1: PNG v NSW; Fiji v Qld; Samoa V Eng; NZ v Cooks; Tonga v France

week 2: Fiji v NSW; PNG v Qld; Eng v Cooks; NZ v France; Tonga v Samoa

*the home teams of the first two games of weeks 1 and 2 are deliberate also...

week 3 - 6: Tier 1 4 nations; Tier 2 4 Nations

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1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

You are wrong. I would be interested in a calendar once every two years of similar versions of...

week 1: PNG v NSW; Fiji v Qld; Samoa V Eng; NZ v Cooks; Tonga v France

week 2: Fiji v NSW; PNG v Qld; Eng v Cooks; NZ v France; Tonga v Samoa

*the home teams of the first two games of weeks 1 and 2 are deliberate also...

week 3 - 6: 4 nations; Pacific 4 Nations

There’s always a minority for everything. 

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5 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Wouldnt they rather play Australia though as part of an international tournament.

Possibly. Beggars and choosers comes to mind. Compromise is important.

I suspect they would be satisfied with two home games against NSW and Qld rather than one away game v Aus.

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17 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Wouldnt they rather play Australia though as part of an international tournament.

PNG are mad for SOO, they’d probably love it if the Kumuls played against the Blues and Maroons.

Not saying that I necessarily think it should happen, but who knows, if the business case was good maybe it’d be worth looking into.

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17 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

The last encounter between the two was the '17 final what did Cameron Smith say after that game?

Yeah and every game a player plays was ‘a tough one’, every team a ‘threat’, every player ‘a good player’, etc, etc.

It’s almost like the players get media training and always say what is expected of them and will look best in the media...

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3 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

PNG are mad for SOO, they’d probably love it if the Kumuls played against the Blues and Maroons.

Not saying that I necessarily think it should happen, but who knows, if the business case was good maybe it’d be worth looking into.

Or not bother & just send the full Kangeroos over.

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2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

Or not bother & just send the full Kangeroos over.

Kangaroos vs Kumuls games are at best a break-even proposition, and realistically make a loss more often than not.

Maybe PNG vs the SOO teams would be a better commercial proposition, which would lead to them getting more games against better opposition.

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I've always liked that the PM XIII play an annual game against PNG (or in the case of last year Fiji). And crucially it takes place in the country they (Australia PM XIII) are playing rather than in Sydney.

Will this game still go ahead this season? I'm assuming it's been binned for obvious reasons.

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44 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

Kangaroos vs Kumuls games are at best a break-even proposition, and realistically make a loss more often than not.

Maybe PNG vs the SOO teams would be a better commercial proposition, which would lead to them getting more games against better opposition.

How would "friendlies" in PNG against state opposition generate more money than Tests against the Kangeroos,,these sides need more Test rugby as part of an organised 4 year calendar ,not meaningless games.

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3 hours ago, Davo5 said:

How would "friendlies" in PNG against state opposition generate more money than Tests against the Kangeroos,,these sides need more Test rugby as part of an organised 4 year calendar ,not meaningless games.

They probably wouldn't, but then again nothing in PNG generates a great deal of money. If they were played in Australia on the other hand. . . Well who knows.

Look I'm not necessarily saying it should happen, in fact because of the impact it'd have here in Australia I'd be pretty against it, but you can't deny that it might be a good way to get them a games more regularly against strong opposition (stronger than most test teams frankly) that might also be more commercially viable.

Also an organised calendar will never happen unless the rest of the RLIF agree to let the NRL organise it, which will never happen.

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The other big SOO issue is letting Pacific players play Origin and still represent their country? I think this is a ridiculous idea which will harm NZ more than anyone. I have heard no mention of players being able to play SOO and still choose to represent NZ. Won't all the Origin-eligible Islanders just choose to play Origin and Tonga over no-Origin and NZ? How does NZ have any hope of retaining its player base?

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2 minutes ago, eal said:

The other big SOO issue is letting Pacific players play Origin and still represent their country? I think this is a ridiculous idea which will harm NZ more than anyone. I have heard no mention of players being able to play SOO and still choose to represent NZ. Won't all the Origin-eligible Islanders just choose to play Origin and Tonga over no-Origin and NZ? How does NZ have any hope of retaining its player base?

So a player of Pacific Island descent  born say in Qld,who has gone through the the levels in Qld,played Intrust Cup,junior Origin then NRL in Qld who then plays for the country of his parents/grandparents shouldn't be allowed to play Origin because it would make it look ridiculous,really.

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On 03/09/2020 at 00:51, Dunbar said:

Yes, I tend to agree.  With the increase in the Polynesian players in the NRL and their opportunity to play for their heritage countries, neither of the choices for State of Origin are attractive.

1. Allow the Polynesian players to play both SOO and International League for their preferred nation and lose the 'Australian' element that makes SOO special.

2. Select only players who will represent Australis in SOO and risk Origin missing many of the best NRL players and devaluing in the product.

Either way, not good. 

Not being able to select some of the best players in the NRL does not devalue SOO. Never has and never will.

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34 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Not being able to select some of the best players in the NRL does not devalue SOO. Never has and never will.

If this is true, why are people speaking out in an attempt to get some of the star NRL players eligible for Origin?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nine.com.au/article/96573151-ae2a-4543-8657-579f70068f05

A quote from the article:

Taumalolo, the 2016 Dally M Medallist, satisfies a raft of other Origin criteria. He played junior and school football in Queensland, and represented Queensland under-18s and Australian schoolboys.

Significant hurdles remain yet Johns, arguably NSW's greatest Origin player, believes that it's time for change.

"I think that's a great idea that they scrap that [rule], so we get the very best of the best, [including] Taumalolo," Johns said on Freddy and the Eighth.

If not seeing the likes of Taumalolo in Origin doesn't devalue it, why are such respected commentators so desperate to see them in?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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29 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

If this is true, why are people speaking out in an attempt to get some of the star NRL players eligible for Origin?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.nine.com.au/article/96573151-ae2a-4543-8657-579f70068f05

A quote from the article:

Taumalolo, the 2016 Dally M Medallist, satisfies a raft of other Origin criteria. He played junior and school football in Queensland, and represented Queensland under-18s and Australian schoolboys.

Significant hurdles remain yet Johns, arguably NSW's greatest Origin player, believes that it's time for change.

"I think that's a great idea that they scrap that [rule], so we get the very best of the best, [including] Taumalolo," Johns said on Freddy and the Eighth.

If not seeing the likes of Taumalolo in Origin doesn't devalue it, why are such respected commentators so desperate to see them in?

Taumalolo is as much a Queenslander as Kalyn Ponga who was born in WA lived a number of years in NZ & has represented NZ Maori.

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