BLM

[gingerjon]

Just now, Robin Evans said:

We need unity. I accept my naivety and I don't do symbolism or tokenism so I don't buy into rainbows, badges, clapping the nhs or this kneeling carry on.

 

A genuine Q, please take it as such as it's not a deliberately leading question, but do you wear a poppy?

[Blind side johnny]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

In what way is RL any less inclusive than other sports? 

BAME coaches, officials, administrators, owners, board members..............................................................

[Eddie]

5 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

BAME coaches, officials, adinistrators, owners, board members..............................................................

Have many BAME people tried to buy rugby league clubs? Also how many own football or Union clubs? 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

14 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

BAME coaches, officials, adinistrators, owners, board members..............................................................

Referees and touch judges, commentators and tv guests 

[Robin Evans]

21 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

A genuine Q, please take it as such as it's not a deliberately leading question, but do you wear a poppy?

No.

[Blind side johnny]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Have many BAME people tried to buy rugby league clubs? Also how many own football or Union clubs? 

What are you arguing against: RL inclusivity or social inclusivity?

[Eddie]

2 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

What are you arguing against: RL inclusivity or social inclusivity?

Neither. You said the lack of BAME owners was an example of the lack of inclusivity in RL. I asked how many BAME had tried to become owners. If it’s none, then it doesn’t reflect a lack of inclusivity. 

[gingerjon]

6 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

No.

Cheers.

[gingerjon]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Neither. You said the lack of BAME owners was an example of the lack of inclusivity in RL. I asked how many BAME had tried to become owners. If it’s none, then it doesn’t reflect a lack of inclusivity. 

If it's none then it may be an indication that we are so far away from being inclusive that we're not even on their radar in the first place.

Dr Koukash counts as BAME though, I guess.

[Rupert Prince]

15 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

I sit on the left of the political spectrum. Only this have I have been called "a pc do-gooder" and "a bleeding heart liberal".

I have friends and colleagues from the BAME community. Some of the nicest kindest folk you'll ever meet and who will remains friends as long as I have a functioning memory. All have a tale to tell about discrimination. Of course their lives matter too.

I have friends and family from the lgbt community. Talk about discrimination?? In my lifetime homosexual intercourse got you locked up ffs. Marriage in church has only been possible the last couple of years.  Clause 28 was only repealed by the Blair govt. All have a tale to tell about discrimination. Lgbt lives matter too.

As a nurse I work with people with learning disabilities.  The most vulnerable, abused and discriminated against people in our society. Even the president of the United States took the ###### out of disabled people by mocking them. They have virtually no voice. No representation and quite often no capacity to advocate for themselves. I have been witness to much abuse perpetrated amongst that community who are almost always unable to resist. I will tell their tale. Their lives matter too.

There are many other examples of discrimination in our society. I care not where those folk are from. If they are in a dinghy on the channel they need safety. Yes, their lives matter too.

So when I say "all lives matter", I genuinely mean that. I'm aware there are people using that mantra for a whole different purpose and with a whole different meaning

We need unity. I accept my naivety and I don't do symbolism or tokenism so I don't buy into rainbows, badges, clapping the nhs or this kneeling carry on.

Indeed.  My rugby hero's are all black.  I am not prejudiced. Importantly all sections of our society should have equal opportunities.  But our issues are nothing to do with American politics, or say Chinese politics, where they are as prediced as any group are.  Our local issues are about black youths being knifed by other black youths. We have different groups of low lifes behaving miserably, and one of those sections is knifing themselves to death.   

This black lives matters campaign is a political campaign and is a prejudiced one... its being used.  People can be opposed to prejudice, but dont have to bend knees or cow to meaningless slogans. 

[Tre Cool]

10 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Indeed.  My rugby hero's are all black.  I am not prejudiced. Importantly all sections of our society should have equal opportunities.  But our issues are nothing to do with American politics, or say Chinese politics, where they are as prediced as any group are.  Our local issues are about black youths being knifed by other black youths. We have different groups of low lifes behaving miserably, and one of those sections is knifing themselves to death.   

This black lives matters campaign is a political campaign and is a prejudiced one... its being used.  People can be opposed to prejudice, but dont have to bend knees or cow to meaningless slogans. 

No! They are completely separate issues to racial inequality! Saying "I like black people" isn't the same as making real changes to create a fairer society.  UK society is racially unequal.  You might not like talking about it but it is.

[Martyn Sadler]

6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Where's the RFL anti-racism messaging and actions equivalent to football's?

 

The RFL's anti-racism message lies in its history.

But it hasn't communicated that message very well.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 hours ago, Just Browny said:

Pretty sure Martyn will wait to see who is winning first before deciding whether it is 'political' or not.

It's never me who makes that decision.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The RFL's anti-racism message lies in its history.

That sounds like a completely useless message.

Redundant in every way in fact.

[Martyn Sadler]

4 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

That sounds like a completely useless message.

Redundant in every way in fact.

Obviously you're perfectly at liberty to scorn Rugby League's history.

But I'm not sure why you should want to.

[gingerjon]

3 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

Obviously you're perfectly at liberty to scorn Rugby League's history.

But I'm not sure why you should want to.

Nice attempt at a silly diversion. I'm not scorning anyone's history. Indeed, if you'd read the thread, you'd see that I referenced it earlier.

"We did some great things years before you were born but have nothing to show you that is relevant today" is a pretty useless approach.

Laughable, in fact.

[Martyn Sadler]

One of the misconceptions about my view of the Black Lives Matter protest in Rugby League, as I've seen on Twitter, is that, no matter what I write in League Express, some people will read what they want to read.

I'm not against players taking the knee if they believe that is the right thing to do. As far as I'm concerned everyone has a free choice to make that decision.

But what I object to is the governing body displaying political banners.

No one can deny that sport and politics are closely connected, but politicising the matchday experience is the best way to drive fans away from the game. When we watch a game, sport should allow us to escape from politics for 80 or 90 minutes.

Historically sporting organisations have banned political advertising at the events they control, but clearly that has now changed.

I think they'll live to regret it.

[Martyn Sadler]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

Nice attempt at a silly diversion. I'm not scorning anyone's history. Indeed, if you'd read the thread, you'd see that I referenced it earlier.

"We did some great things years before you were born but have nothing to show you that is relevant today" is a pretty useless approach.

Laughable, in fact.

Not laughable at all, unless you have a very strange sense of humour.

[RP London]

49 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

If it's none then it may be an indication that we are so far away from being inclusive that we're not even on their radar in the first place.

Dr Koukash counts as BAME though, I guess.

Or that they feel as though they cannot break into the club or would not feel wanted within the club so dont bother looking at it and look to spend their money elsewhere. Coaches, for example, if they dont feel as though the opportunity will be given to them are they likely to go and get their badges, without which they cant get a job.. it isnt just about who has applied its who is not even seeing it as an avenue and why.. 

[RigbyLuger]

When the sport celebrates the career of a player who posted alleged racism on social media with a testimonial, you start to question is they pay attention to the message they want to get out there.

[gingerjon]

Just now, Martyn Sadler said:

Not laughable at all, unless you have a very strange sense of humour.

I'm not the one who suggested that some grainy footage from years ago was all that was required to show that rugby league is an inclusive sport.

[RigbyLuger]

2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

One of the misconceptions about my view of the Black Lives Matter protest in Rugby League, as I've seen on Twitter, is that, no matter what I write in League Express, some people will read what they want to read.

That's why it's not worth fighting over, as those people will never understand your viewpoint because they've decided there is no nuance in the debate.

And I'm not saying either side of those debates are right or wrong, just racism is bad, and the sport should so everything it can to make RL as open and as inclusive as possible, be that race, sexuality etc.

[Dunbar]

32 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The RFL's anti-racism message lies in its history.

But it hasn't communicated that message very well.

I'm sorry but I think this is a very naive view.

We have modern players in the game such as Vinny Finigan, Ashton Golding, Michael Lawrence and Jordan Turner opening up about their experiences of racism.  Experiences they are having in the present.  If our history displays our anti-racism then we have either gone backwards or we were not the sport we thought we were.

A thousand people can post on here that there is no racism in Rugby League or that it is not a big problem but the only voices that matter are those that have experienced racism and they are the voices that should be heard.  It is uncomfortable to address it but address we must.

And as I pointed out on another thread.  Where are the colleagues and team mates of Vinny Finigan, Ashton Golding, Michael Lawrence and Jordan Turner condemning the racist actions and behaviors they have witnessed?  If racism occurs and racists are not called out by people then that is the very definition of institutional... behaviors and actions that are tolerated because it is too uncomfortable to call them out.

I don't care whether we are more or less racist than another sport or other institutions and of course not everyone in Rugby League is racist.  But when our players are describing the challenges they have faced we have a problem and we must address it.

[Martyn Sadler]

13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I'm sorry but I think this is a very naive view.

We have modern players in the game such as Vinny Finigan, Ashton Golding, Michael Lawrence and Jordan Turner opening up about their experiences of racism.  Experiences they are having in the present.  If our history displays our anti-racism then we have either gone backwards or we were not the sport we thought we were.

A thousand people can post on here that there is no racism in Rugby League or that it is not a big problem but the only voices that matter are those that have experienced racism and they are the voices that should be heard.  It is uncomfortable to address it but address we must.

And as I pointed out on another thread.  Where are the colleagues and team mates of Vinny Finigan, Ashton Golding, Michael Lawrence and Jordan Turner condemning the racist actions and behaviors they have witnessed?  If racism occurs and racists are not called out by people then that is the very definition of institutional... behaviors and actions that are tolerated because it is too uncomfortable to call them out.

I don't care whether we are more or less racist than another sport or other institutions and of course not everyone in Rugby League is racist.  But when our players are describing the challenges they have faced we have a problem and we must address it.

To point to your history certainly isn't naive. You certainly don't make a case out that it is.

But if there are modern examples of BAME players being the victims of racist behaviour, then that is a distinct issue that needs to be addressed.

I don't think anyone would argue against that.

[Tre Cool]

41 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

One of the misconceptions about my view of the Black Lives Matter protest in Rugby League, as I've seen on Twitter, is that, no matter what I write in League Express, some people will read what they want to read.

I'm not against players taking the knee if they believe that is the right thing to do. As far as I'm concerned everyone has a free choice to make that decision.

But what I object to is the governing body displaying political banners.

No one can deny that sport and politics are closely connected, but politicising the matchday experience is the best way to drive fans away from the game. When we watch a game, sport should allow us to escape from politics for 80 or 90 minutes.

Historically sporting organisations have banned political advertising at the events they control, but clearly that has now changed.

I think they'll live to regret it.

Its not political. It's a campaign for racial equality. It's only political if you think there's some ulterior motive to a campaign for racial equality.  Which there isn't. That's why I, and others, find your stance on this so morally questionable.  Do you think the UK is racially equal?  Do you think RL is racially equal? It of course isn't. So why are you so offended by a campaign which wants to improve the lives of minorities?