What does the season look like from here?

[Dave T]

17 minutes ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes I agree.  However the fundamental rule as i understand is that clubs must complete 15 fixtures to qualify (??).

At the moment Leeds & Catalan are on 12.  Saints 13.  So will it ne a sqeeze to fit games in?  The season is inherently unfair, but there really is no option as i see it.

Yeah, 15 is the magic number. By the end of this week those clubs will be on 13and 14 games. So almost there. I'd be very surprised if none of the key teams reach that 15, I think they were relatively sensible with that cutoff point. 

[redjonn]

If you play more than 15 games do you take your best 15 results, so its fair when comparing to a club that only plays 15.

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

29 minutes ago, redjonn said:

If you play more than 15 games do you take your best 15 results, so its fair when comparing to a club that only plays 15.

As I understand it, redjohn, 'No'.  If you just took fifteen results, then there would be no need to use percentages.  Incidentally, I am at a loss to understand why you consider having the luxury to choose your best fifteen results is 'fair', compared to a team who may only have had the chance to play fifteen.  I presume the only basis for a game's being called off is because there is a Covid-19 issue thrown up by individuals' tests, but I also presume that oversight of that process is outside the control of individual clubs.

[Griff]

3 hours ago, briggyq said:

I agree, it is a shambles (changing the % based system didn't help, perhaps should have gone with it from the restart?)

But I agree the winners should get full credit for this season but I just dont see it happening.

The thing is that testing positive is like getting sent off.  Which just adds to the chances of your club not fielding their strongest side. Along with trying to balance out the physical toll on the players from too many games.

Percentages ?  There's nothing more capricious than dividing one number by another.  Personally, I'd just plan to plan my 15 easiest games .......

[Griff]

2 hours ago, redjonn said:

If you play more than 15 games do you take your best 15 results, so its fair when comparing to a club that only plays 15.

"Fair" never happens.

To be "fair", every club would need to play the same 17 players against every opponent, on the same ground, under the same weather conditions with the same referee.

"Fair" is an impossible concept.   We just substitute the "best we can" as an alternative.

[Hela Wigmen]

5 minutes ago, Griff said:

The thing is that testing positive is like getting sent off.  Which just adds to the chances of your club not fielding their strongest side. Along with trying to balance out the physical toll on the players from too many games.

Percentages ?  There's nothing more capricious than dividing one number by another.  Personally, I'd just plan to plan my 15 easiest games .......

It’s like injuries too, then. It’s not fair that Wakefield have had so many injuries this year and others haven’t. But they have. That’s how it works. 

[Griff]

9 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It’s like injuries too, then. It’s not fair that Wakefield have had so many injuries this year and others haven’t. But they have. That’s how it works. 

No need to add to the problem, is there ?

[LeeF]

4 hours ago, briggyq said:

I agree, it is a shambles (changing the % based system didn't help, perhaps should have gone with it from the restart?)

 

But I agree the winners should get full credit for this season but I just dont see it happening.

It’s been far from a shambles. As others have posted it has been an excellent effort by all concerned

The percentage calculation was only introduced once it was realised that numerous matches were likely to have to be cancelled due to the virus. When the season restarted it was generally expected that things would pick up across the country eg crowds back; offices fully opened etc but unfortunately that hasn’t happened so flexibility has been the order of the day 

[Exiled Wiganer]

We are lucky to have any games to watch at all. And as a game we are hugely indebted to the much maligned RFL for stepping up. In Oz, V’Landys is showing what a man of drive and vision can do with the greatest game. By the looks of it, we may have pretty much a full complement of teams playing next year, when, god willing, we can see them in the flesh. And that was by no means certain. Let’s not under estimate the level of stress that all the players have had to go through and the sacrifices they continue to make to keep safe and well (and I appreciate that many of us would swap places with them in an instant). 

As to the outcome, if Saints win, it will be a devalued, asterisked title, but if anyone else wins my god they will have earned it!

[Futtocks]

1 hour ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

As to the outcome, if Saints win, it will be a devalued, asterisked title, but if anyone else wins my god they will have earned it!

[redjonn]

3 hours ago, Griff said:

"Fair" never happens.

To be "fair", every club would need to play the same 17 players against every opponent, on the same ground, under the same weather conditions with the same referee.

"Fair" is an impossible concept.   We just substitute the "best we can" as an alternative.

yep, understand...

Just say having played 15 a team has a high percentage that puts them well into the top 4.  Then playing another or more games is a risk upon losing that high percentage, resulting a non top 4 spot.

I guess as long as nobody tries to avoid those extra games no problems but if you lose it puts you in more jeopardy of not making the top 4.

That was all my point was.

I agree its nigh impossible to have absolute fairness, but someone mentioned injuries but their that's down to a clubs decision on a teams squad and so I wouldn't say their was any unfairness outside of a club control about injury or covid cover outside of having too many isolating,

 

[redjonn]

3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It’s like injuries too, then. It’s not fair that Wakefield have had so many injuries this year and others haven’t. But they have. That’s how it works. 

Then again that's about how good your full squad are, which I guess depends upon fiancial resource. Especially if not using full cap, no idea if Wakefield do or not use full cap.

At least injuries is about the full squad selection for the season as distinct from having a complete wipe out through high covid infection.

Anyway I agree its about making the best of a bad situation.

[Rupert Prince]

So how many games will we get in before the Semis? 

I read in press Wigan pointing out that Harvard has injured his ankle (in Cup semi) and may be out for rest of season, saying there only 6 more games and he will not be fit for playoffs.

Aren't they being optimistic? 6??

[Dave T]

52 minutes ago, redjonn said:

yep, understand...

Just say having played 15 a team has a high percentage that puts them well into the top 4.  Then playing another or more games is a risk upon losing that high percentage, resulting a non top 4 spot.

I guess as long as nobody tries to avoid those extra games no problems but if you lose it puts you in more jeopardy of not making the top 4.

That was all my point was.

I agree its nigh impossible to have absolute fairness, but someone mentioned injuries but their that's down to a clubs decision on a teams squad and so I wouldn't say their was any unfairness outside of a club control about injury or covid cover outside of having too many isolating,

 

They have a testing company managing this, and officials overseeing it, I don't think it is that easy to just manipulate games like this. 

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

So how many games will we get in before the Semis? 

I read in press Wigan pointing out that Harvard has injured his ankle (in Cup semi) and may be out for rest of season, saying there only 6 more games and he will not be fit for playoffs.

Aren't they being optimistic? 6??

I'd like to see them start to announce the semi dates and grand final. Maybe that will come over the next aweek or two as we pass the 15 game mark. 

[wiganermike]

1 minute ago, Rupert Prince said:

So how many games will we get in before the Semis? 

I read in press Wigan pointing out that Harvard has injured his ankle (in Cup semi) and may be out for rest of season, saying there only 6 more games and he will not be fit for playoffs.

Aren't they being optimistic? 6??

We have played 14 games and have 6 further games scheduled with the last of those expected to be on 13th November. We may or may not play all 6 of those games but the club would have to hope that the measures taken to limit the virus within the club will be robust enough in tandem with the size of the squad to avoid us having to call off any games. The playoffs are due to start on 20th November, the GF is supposed to be the week after that. If they expect anything from 6 weeks or longer for him to recover then his season is over.

Rather than being optimistic they are referencing the season schedule, I would say that is to be expected from any club. For any club to talk now of not thinking they can fulfil all of their scheduled games would be a case of being too pessimistic (unless they knew that current loss of players due to Covid would prevent them fulfilling their very next fixture).

[LeeF]

11 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'd like to see them start to announce the semi dates and grand final. Maybe that will come over the next aweek or two as we pass the 15 game mark. 

Maybe waiting for the Challenge Cup final to be played before focusing on the Grand Final?

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, redjonn said:

yep, understand...

Just say having played 15 a team has a high percentage that puts them well into the top 4.  Then playing another or more games is a risk upon losing that high percentage, resulting a non top 4 spot.

I guess as long as nobody tries to avoid those extra games no problems but if you lose it puts you in more jeopardy of not making the top 4.

That was all my point was.

I agree its nigh impossible to have absolute fairness, but someone mentioned injuries but their that's down to a clubs decision on a teams squad and so I wouldn't say their was any unfairness outside of a club control about injury or covid cover outside of having too many isolating,

 

How do you avoid the “extra” games? Matches are allocated for 10 clubs, minimum, each week so it isn’t down to the clubs to pick and choose

[wiganermike]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'd like to see them start to announce the semi dates and grand final. Maybe that will come over the next aweek or two as we pass the 15 game mark. 

Everything is only being set in stone in two round blocks due to the changeable nature of the situation. I had a look at Wigan's remaining fixtures (provisional schedule) on the club website after our game v Catalans was brought forward to this week (as we were due to have our Toronto fixture this week so I wanted to see when our bye was now due to happen). The last scheduled round is provisionally 13th November and the GF was stated as being on or around 27th November so I would deduce 20th November for the SFs. The dates I expect will be made official once we know they don't need to be put back at all.

[Rupert Prince]

11 hours ago, wiganermike said:

We have played 14 games and have 6 further games scheduled with the last of those expected to be on 13th November. We may or may not play all 6 of those games but the club would have to hope that the measures taken to limit the virus within the club will be robust enough in tandem with the size of the squad to avoid us having to call off any games. The playoffs are due to start on 20th November, the GF is supposed to be the week after that. If they expect anything from 6 weeks or longer for him to recover then his season is over.

Rather than being optimistic they are referencing the season schedule, I would say that is to be expected from any club. For any club to talk now of not thinking they can fulfil all of their scheduled games would be a case of being too pessimistic (unless they knew that current loss of players due to Covid would prevent them fulfilling their very next fixture).

Yes.  But Leeds and Catalan are 2 games behind us. Saints and several others are a game behind.  Its now 13 Oct. The former pair have to fit in 8 games in that time. Leeds and Salford are effectively giving away game victories before the Cup. Are they in this schedule not going to give away more points?  Warrington make up points tonight surely. 3 of the semi finalists gave away points.   In this squeezed schedule its making a mockery of the competition.  And if the intent is to complete the sesson, then why worry about percentages. Whats with all this wishful thinking?

And add to this the season will end at the end of Nov and start again in Feb. ?  All this on the back of half baked rule changes made on the alter of speeding the game up and making it even more debilitating!

Ignoring the virus issue... is this a sane way to cobble together a competition?

[LeeF]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes.  But Leeds and Catalan are 2 games behind us. Saints and several others are a game behind.  Its now 13 Oct. The former pair have to fit in 8 games in that time. Leeds and Salford are effectively giving away game victories before the Cup. Are they in this schedule not going to give away more points?  Warrington make up points tonight surely. 3 of the semi finalists gave away points.   In this squeezed schedule its making a mockery of the competition.  And if the intent is to complete the sesson, then why worry about percentages. Whats with all this wishful thinking?

And add to this the season will end at the end of Nov and start again in Feb. ?  All this on the back of half baked rule changes made on the alter of speeding the game up and making it even more debilitating!

Ignoring the virus issue... is this a sane way to cobble together a competition?

The percentages are because not all teams may end up playing the same number of matches and you really cannot ignore COVID 19. It is the reason why the season was halted and then re-commenced in the format we are currently witnessing

[RP London]

1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

Yes.  But Leeds and Catalan are 2 games behind us. Saints and several others are a game behind.  Its now 13 Oct. The former pair have to fit in 8 games in that time. Leeds and Salford are effectively giving away game victories before the Cup. Are they in this schedule not going to give away more points?  Warrington make up points tonight surely. 3 of the semi finalists gave away points.   In this squeezed schedule its making a mockery of the competition.  And if the intent is to complete the sesson, then why worry about percentages. Whats with all this wishful thinking?

And add to this the season will end at the end of Nov and start again in Feb. ?  All this on the back of half baked rule changes made on the alter of speeding the game up and making it even more debilitating!

Ignoring the virus issue... is this a sane way to cobble together a competition?

i've emboldened 2 big points in this for me. 

It is only the intention to "complete the season" in terms of getting to a grand final and crowing a champions. The aim is to make that work as well as possible, no one is expecting to actually complete the season in terms of 20+ games and equal games each. at which point percentages come in.. as it did in many other sports to finish their seasons at a sensible time in the summer. We are using the same to try and finish this horrible year at a time that does not affect the 2021 season any more than it has to. 

You cannot ignore the virus in this at all... the scrum for example was scrapped due to the virus

edit: probably should have read Lee's post before i posted!

[Hela Wigmen]

Last two rounds confirmed. 

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Last two rounds confirmed. 

Has it been confirmed that they are the last two rounds? Doesn't seem to mention that on the SL website?

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

Has it been confirmed that they are the last two rounds? Doesn't seem to mention that on the SL website?

Ah, you’re write. I was skim reading while on a Zoom call at work and saw “remainder” and assumed it mean of the season, not the month.