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Northern Union. A time to take stock?


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9 hours ago, gingerjon said:

Rugby union had no interest in improving as a spectacle until it needed to because it had to pay its players.

For decades it had paid its players. Finally, belatedly, the taxman took an interest. 

In an increasingly technological and questioning age the 'old boys network' and 'shamateurism', by the early to mid 90s, was impossible to sustain. 

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10 minutes ago, Number 16 said:

For decades it had paid its players. Finally, belatedly, the taxman took an interest. 

In an increasingly technological and questioning age the 'old boys network' and 'shamateurism', by the early to mid 90s, was impossible to sustain. 

It’s fair to say they always paid.

My point would be that the ability to pay was rarely anything to do with crowds and everything to do with old boys sponsorship.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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I'd add, in addition to some excellent posts, that the influence of professionalism in soccer/football was a big influencer. Apologies if I missed that in posts. If the split hadn't happened for a few more years, then soccer/football could have impacted much more on rugby than it did.

Move a few years earlier than 1895 - maybe the will wasn't quite there, but arguments about money and control were 

 

 

 

 

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Its all 'what if', but had RL in the early days actually helped Welsh RL develop instead on northern clubs just using Wales as a production line of juniors, we might be in a very different position today.  If Wales had moved to RL then we might have had enough weight of numbers to end up the dominant code.  But the short-termism and club at all costs focus has always been RL's achilles heel. 

Just to put it in perspective, whilst Leeds haven't signed players en masse from Wales for over 40 years, almost 10% of ALL players to have played for Leeds were Welsh, and at times we fielded half a team of Welshmen.  I'd be surprised if those figures weren't similar across most teams.

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16 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

From memory, the final paragraph in the book "The Forbidden Game" has the phrase (or very close to it) "If today we had no Rugby League, we would only have Rugby League" pretty much sums up what you are saying Damien that "Rugby" would have evolved into what League is today.

What sport would we have attended then though in the north?

We, or our ancestors, wouldn't really have felt comfortable at "Union" grounds amongst their more affluent support, regardless of the type of rugby played. The clubs and  grounds would have been in areas we aren't familiar with, Ilkley, Harrogate etc. 

Maybe we would have invented another variant?

I think we should feel proud of our northern heritage in the same way that other sports such as Gaelic football, Aussie rules do about theirs. Certainly teams such as Toronto draw crowds playing the older local teams and I think we need to embrace this more.

 

 

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15 hours ago, fighting irish said:

 

You two sound as if you've been working in the strategy department of the RFL for the last 20 odd years.

Yes. The facilitator to distinctively integrate frictionless potentialities. It’s ostensibly a clarity keystone perspective utilizing a helicopter view.

- Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga -

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On 24/10/2020 at 02:47, Niels said:

What sport would we have attended then though in the north?

Given that the most popular sport across Yorkshire, Lancashire and Cumbria, including the M62 corridor, is soccer, and that it was to soccer that we were already losing many clubs, players and spectators, and continued to lose clubs, players and spectators, the answer is pretty obvious.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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28 minutes ago, thebrewxi said:

To help increase the geographical spread across the UK, which not change from just "Rugby League" to "National Rugby League"?

This means that the European Super League would be the top tier of the National Rugby League.

And the World Cup is the premier event for the National Rugby League.

A little bit oxymoronish

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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2 hours ago, thebrewxi said:

To help increase the geographical spread across the UK, which not change from just "Rugby League" to "National Rugby League"?

If you listen to the podcast,reasons are given for obviating the use of the word RUGBY!

Now really is the time to move forward.

All the time created by this pandemic is going to be wasted, isn't it?

The sport is diminishing.We need a saviour:Immediately!

     No reserves,but resilience,persistence and determination are omnipotent.                       

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7 minutes ago, thebrewxi said:

I was just mucking about, to be honest.

Fair enough.  I should try and stop taking things too seriously 

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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36 minutes ago, Angelic Cynic said:

If you listen to the podcast,reasons are given for obviating the use of the word RUGBY!

Now really is the time to move forward.

All the time created by this pandemic is going to be wasted, isn't it?

The sport is diminishing.We need a saviour:Immediately!

Another reason not mentioned in the podcast is the problem caused in countries where RU is relatively weak so they assert their ownership of the word rugby and use the courts to shut down RL on those grounds.

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17 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

Another reason not mentioned in the podcast is the problem caused in countries where RU is relatively weak so they assert their ownership of the word rugby and use the courts to shut down RL on those grounds.

I certainly think that it would be wise to use a different name when started afresh in a new country. There is little advantage using the name Rugby League in places where it means little anyway.

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On 23/10/2020 at 09:47, Damien said:

I know this is tongue in check and it depends on what is meant by worked but I'm going to play devil's advocate.

It didn't work because it entrenched the sport as a Northern sport and the initial clubs were all bothered about themselves, not expanding the game or establishing firm foundations. It was all about the elite. In the North Union was decimated after the split but the Northern Union wasn't interested in developing the game as such and today in the North, the game's heartland, there are more RU clubs at the lower levels with better facilities and more players. The Northern Union/Rugby League seemed to be quite content to be a professional arm of Rugby for a long time, which the game is still paying for.

Clubs in places like Newcastle, Coventry, Birkenhead, Lancaster, Stockport, Morecombe, South Shields etc were allowed to come and go in the early years which would have given the sport a much more national blue print. Little attempt was made to bring over Wales as a whole which was a completely natural fit for the game and all of those initial Welsh clubs the game did see were lost. Even the first Northern Union Champions, Manningham, were lost to Football.

It also didn't work because without the split Rugby would have naturally became what Rugby League is today. It would have followed the same path with rule changes and for the same reasons.

Who also knows what would have happened if the clubs didn't split away and all the leading clubs worked to change Rugby and player payments from within? Yes it took 100 years for RU to go pro but it may have happened much sooner if it wasn't for the split, which just entrenched positions and saw all of the working class part of the game and leading clubs outside of the RFU with no influence.

It worked in the sense that the game still exists and that a majority of the original Northern Union clubs still exist. The game has first mover advantage in its rule changes and has evolved to be a much more attractive game to watch and play. Rugby Union is stifled in its gameplay and much of what can be improved takes it ever closer to Rugby League.

Interesting however I think it would have gone more the way of cricket. With gentlemen and players allowed to play together, rugby union rules (as we know them) would have been prevalent to negate the professionals. Only in the 70s/80s would rugby league rules start to become established (c.f test cricket and one day to 20/20).

 

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On 23/10/2020 at 07:22, unapologetic pedant said:

1895 worked eventually, in that RU went pro exactly a hundred years subsequent.(I think they called it going "Open")

If in 2006, to comply with the demands of chronological symmetry, they had introduced a PTB, it would have worked even better. Still waiting for that, although all the changes to their ruck in the past 25 years have gravitated in a League direction.

The breakdown interpretation now favours a league style quick play in theory... Few sides seem to do it yet though, getting over a gain line where the oppo is right on you with two extra players is tough.. ... Bristol try  and can be great to watch. If they ever made a 5 or even 10 metre offside line for those tackling after the pass from 9 then the games could even merge

The willingness to play with width in the oppo's half and even 22 recall has nudged towards league. Wingers get the ball from wider passing moves and even fifth tackle style kicks now.... Was much rarer twenty or even 10 years ago...

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11 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

The breakdown interpretation now favours a league style quick play in theory... Few sides seem to do it yet though, getting over a gain line where the oppo is right on you with two extra players is tough.. ... Bristol try  and can be great to watch. If they ever made a 5 or even 10 metre offside line for those tackling after the pass from 9 then the games could even merge

The willingness to play with width in the oppo's half and even 22 recall has nudged towards league. Wingers get the ball from wider passing moves and even fifth tackle style kicks now.... Was much rarer twenty or even 10 years ago...

 They have a long way to go yet.

England centre Lawrence was passed the ball once in the first 69 minutes of the recent 6 Nations game and was then replaced positionally by the guy who had failed to pass to him in all that time........

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11 minutes ago, del capo said:

 They have a long way to go yet.

England centre Lawrence was passed the ball once in the first 69 minutes of the recent 6 Nations game and was then replaced positionally by the guy who had failed to pass to him in all that time........

on the other hand the 19 year old Welsh winger scored 2 tries including an excellent kick ahead and also had at least 1 assist.  He is going to make quite a bit of money as well. He looked world class.  In the golden olden days, Dugie Laughton would be knocking on his door even as we speak.

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10 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

The breakdown interpretation now favours a league style quick play in theory... Few sides seem to do it yet though, getting over a gain line where the oppo is right on you with two extra players is tough.. ... Bristol try  and can be great to watch. If they ever made a 5 or even 10 metre offside line for those tackling after the pass from 9 then the games could even merge

The willingness to play with width in the oppo's half and even 22 recall has nudged towards league. Wingers get the ball from wider passing moves and even fifth tackle style kicks now.... Was much rarer twenty or even 10 years ago...

On a tangential matter, there`s a short video just appeared on Youtube of the first line dropout in a NZ SR trial game. Looking through the comments, some like it, others think barbarism has finally prevailed.

On the ruck, in League there`s a perennial trade-off between ruck-speed and offside line. In the 10m era we`ve probably had slower ball on average than Union. It`s balanced out by the extra space.

If Union adopted a League offside line, they`d also have to reverse their recent trend and allow defenders more latitude in slowing the ruck. Or find a way to limit possession. This latter wouldn`t be entirely novel. When a Union ref says "use it once" at a maul, that`s a form of limited possession.

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1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said:

on the other hand the 19 year old Welsh winger scored 2 tries including an excellent kick ahead and also had at least 1 assist.  He is going to make quite a bit of money as well. He looked world class.  In the golden olden days, Dugie Laughton would be knocking on his door even as we speak.

I made the same comnent to union mates when watching on Zoom. Rees-Zammutt would have been in a cherry and white shirt by Summer if it were 1991 not 2021. He'd by dynamite in league too

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3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

  In the golden olden days, Dugie Laughton would be knocking on his door even as we speak.

Dougie wasn`t the only visionary laying the foundations for long-term success. In the "golden olden days" we were blessed with many club owners and coaches who understood that signing Union players is the holy grail for RL. They couldn`t have known RU would go pro and ruin everything.

The impact on the morale of RL fans has been devastating. In the "golden olden days" we could cherish the hope of actually seeing a 19-year-old Welsh RU winger in the flesh. Now all we have are the TV pictures. No wonder we`re all miserable and the game is in decline.

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4 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Dougie wasn`t the only visionary laying the foundations for long-term success. In the "golden olden days" we were blessed with many club owners and coaches who understood that signing Union players is the holy grail for RL. They couldn`t have known RU would go pro and ruin everything.

The impact on the morale of RL fans has been devastating. In the "golden olden days" we could cherish the hope of actually seeing a 19-year-old Welsh RU winger in the flesh. Now all we have are the TV pictures. No wonder we`re all miserable and the game is in decline.

RU did go pro though, more than likely in response to the money which News Ltd was putting into RL.  Those "golden olden days" are gone for good unless someone somewhere works out how RL can attract the sort of funding necessary to pay players as well as RU can now.

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