Manx RL Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 3 hours ago, Griff said: Yorkshire and the Humber ? How many players were born in a river ? River of Origin. Now that would get media interest, particularly if Jordan gets involved. - Adepto Successu Per Tributum Fuga - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said: Bit different comparing Tier One v Tier Two with Tier One v Tier One but yeah, great. Oooh - there's an idea for Origin. Folk in a Tier 2 Covid area v Folk in Tier 3. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said: Go check the average scorelines of the games. Average of a 12 point winning margin over the last six compared with a 42 point average over the French Fancies. The average scoreline over the last six games between England and Australia has indeed been a 12 point winning margin to the Aussies. And for the six games before that the average winning margin was 24 points. We carried on playing them and the games got closer. Shall we not provide the same opportunity to the French or shall we just write them off? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said: It’s not as much of a mismatch, the results and winning margin confirm as much. England Rugby League are not here to help the game grow. They’re here to win tournaments. The Exiles indeed is a rubbish idea. Who would you have England play? We need games in between tournaments (ie world cups) to help win one, and the RFL can’t afford to go down under every year, Australia aren’t too interested in coming here and the south sea island probably can’t afford to come here either. It’s not ideal, but France is our best realistic option. Could maybe have a game against the NRL champions when they come over for the WCC but playing a club side would be quite embarrassing, win or lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: The average scoreline over the last six games between England and Australia has indeed been a 12 point winning margin to the Aussies. And for the six games before that the average winning margin was 24 points. We carried on playing them and the games got closer. Shall we not provide the same opportunity to the French or shall we just write them off? England v France in the 00’s Played - 9 England 9, France 0, Draws 0. Winning Margin - 320 Average winning margin - 35.55pts England v France in the 10’s Played - 9 England 9, France 0, Draws 0 Winning Margin - 362 Average Winning Margin - 40.22pts They’re getting worse. What excuse do you want to make now. We’re not here to be nice or to grow the game. We’re here to win games and attempt to win World Cups (Shaun Wane has said as much). This is exactly how Wigan or Leeds aren’t here to grow the game in Toronto and Canada, they’re here to win games. Playing France is worth absolutely nothing. The fans don’t want it, the attendances in non-World Cup matches shows as much. Unless it’s a World Cup game, people don’t care. The same can be said of broadcasters, too. I’m not saying we should be playing Australia regularly, however comparing England v Australia to England v France is futile. It would be nice to but when you’re playing Blake Austin on the wing and getting battered by PNG, can you expect to play them? We need to play New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG regularly and be beating them before even claiming that Australia should play us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 I often scratch my head when I read some of the comments as it seems to me that the State of Orgin series has always been massive and just happened to be massive. As distinct from investing marketing time and efforts to build it into the phenomenon it is. Does anyone have a history of how it developed, say from the demise of the Inter State to now, its initial support and opposition to it, and early crowds. As I guess the demise of the inter-county Lancs/Yorkshire seems similar but then we just give up as distinct at looking at reviving or re-building.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 3 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said: Because nobody wants to see England absolutely dick an inferior nation, like France. The average tonking we’ve give them over the last six games has been by 42 points. They’re a joke and we learn less than nothing playing them. Sell out crowds against Ireland and Fiji back in 2013 plus a 20k+ crowd against France in the same tournament plus a 20k+ against Scotland at Coventry in the Four Nations tells me that you may not be correct... ... what it tells me is to not play the game on a midweek night at Leigh or on a weekend at Salford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, Eddie said: Who would you have England play? We need games in between tournaments (ie world cups) to help win one, and the RFL can’t afford to go down under every year, Australia aren’t too interested in coming here and the south sea island probably can’t afford to come here either. It’s not ideal, but France is our best realistic option. Could maybe have a game against the NRL champions when they come over for the WCC but playing a club side would be quite embarrassing, win or lose. The Australia thing is a myth. The international calendar and nations in the southern hemisphere is strong so why would they travel across the world to play England? We go down there and play them. We must. We embarrassed ourselves under Wayne Bennett last year. We need to rebuild our credibility and standing. Why should any of them come here? We’re somewhere between third and fourth best in the world with fifth and sixth beginning to breath down our collective necks. Walking through a disinterested and underwhelming France side changes nothing and goes no way to helping our standing. Much like Australia playing Cook Islands annually wouldn’t. Forget the Exiles, it’s dire. Forget France, they’re dire. Forget everyone else in the northern hemisphere, they’re part-time. I’d rather a couple of weeks break mid-season than my club’s players risking injury in a meaningless friendly against France and it’s the way clubs and players viewed Exiles and would likely do with France too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said: Sell out crowds against Ireland and Fiji back in 2013 plus a 20k+ crowd against France in the same tournament plus a 20k+ against Scotland at Coventry in the Four Nations tells me that you may not be correct... ... what it tells me is to not play the game on a midweek night at Leigh or on a weekend at Salford. Are you going to try and use a World Cup to justify playing France? We’ve got proof that World Cup’s do well for ticketing (who would have guessed it?) but you can’t have a World Cup every year. Attendances against France in a non-World Cup or tournament game have not commanded a five figure crowd for some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said: England v France in the 00’s Played - 9 England 9, France 0, Draws 0. Winning Margin - 320 Average winning margin - 35.55pts England v France in the 10’s Played - 9 England 9, France 0, Draws 0 Winning Margin - 362 Average Winning Margin - 40.22pts They’re getting worse. What excuse do you want to make now. We’re not here to be nice or to grow the game. We’re here to win games and attempt to win World Cups (Shaun Wane has said as much). This is exactly how Wigan or Leeds aren’t here to grow the game in Toronto and Canada, they’re here to win games. Playing France is worth absolutely nothing. The fans don’t want it, the attendances in non-World Cup matches shows as much. Unless it’s a World Cup game, people don’t care. The same can be said of broadcasters, too. I’m not saying we should be playing Australia regularly, however comparing England v Australia to England v France is futile. It would be nice to but when you’re playing Blake Austin on the wing and getting battered by PNG, can you expect to play them? We need to play New Zealand, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji and PNG regularly and be beating them before even claiming that Australia should play us. What do you mean the fans don't want it? The last two times England played France in France was 2011 and 2016 when 16,866 and 14,276 fans turned up. Please show me a non international Rugby League game in France since 2011 that has attracted more fans and I will agree that the fans don't want it. Oh, and by the way, if 'we' in the sport of Rugby League are not here to grow the game then who the hell is? Actually, reading through this conversation I think that our issue is one of perspective. I am talking about what is good for the game as a whole and you are talking about what is good for a specific club or country. I apologies for singling you out in the following statement but it is this type of small mindedness and self protective thinking that has constantly held our sport back over the years. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 Just now, Dunbar said: What do you mean the fans don't want it? The last two times England played France in France was 2011 and 2016 when 16,866 and 14,276 fans turned up. Please show me a non international Rugby League game in France since 2011 that has attracted more fans and I will agree that the fans don't want it. Oh, and by the way, if 'we' in the sport of Rugby League are not here to grow the game then who the hell is? Actually, reading through this conversation I think that our issue is one of perspective. I am talking about what is good for the game as a whole and you are talking about what is good for a specific club or country. I apologies for singling you out in the following statement but it is this type of small mindedness and self protective thinking that has constantly held our sport back over the years. Using French attendances. Keep digging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Frisky Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 In Cumbria, on Sellafield a few years ago they had a RL or Cricket match of locals ( So Whitehaven and Workington lads) against the lads who travelled up to work from Barrow. The match was titled- The Marras V The Barras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheshire Setter Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 51 minutes ago, Manx RL said: River of Origin. Now that would get media interest, particularly if Jordan gets involved. Don’t fancy attending the reverse fixture at Babylon, mind. Although if it’s a choice between that and the Humber... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said: Using French attendances. Keep digging. Yes, using attendances at France vs. England tests as a counter to a statement that no-one wants to see France vs. England tests. What on earth was I thinking! "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Yes, using attendances at France vs. England tests as a counter to a statement that no-one wants to see France vs. England tests. What on earth was I thinking! Attendances in this country as you well know, because you’ve clearly looked, are poor. We’ve had one five figure crowd against them in a non-World Cup game in years, which says a lot. The appetite is one way. That doesn’t mean we feed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 4 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said: Attendances in this country as you well know, because you’ve clearly looked, are poor. We’ve had one five figure crowd against them in a non-World Cup game in years, which says a lot. The appetite is one way. That doesn’t mean we feed it. I really am at a loss to understand your thinking. Clearly the French fans want to see their national team play in France and England is the main draw in the Northern Hemisphere for them. But your logic is that it will do us no good and so we shouldn't play them. That is incredibly short sighted. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I really am at a loss to understand your thinking. Clearly the French fans want to see their national team play in France and England is the main draw in the Northern Hemisphere for them. But your logic is that it will do us no good and so we shouldn't play them. That is incredibly short sighted. It won’t. We shouldn’t. Note Shaun Wane pushing for an Exiles game at the end of this year rather than France, despite Catalans playing in Super League. I wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Rupert Prince said: We have beaten Australia, and we have beaten them consecutively. Not in the same series! Yeah in the last century Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Manx RL said: River of Origin. Now that would get media interest, particularly if Jordan gets involved. Trent Jordan used to play for Dewsbury. The fans called him Billy Two Rivers. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redjonn Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 1 hour ago, Hela Wigmen said: It won’t. We shouldn’t. Note Shaun Wane pushing for an Exiles game at the end of this year rather than France, despite Catalans playing in Super League. I wonder why? To be honest its about strategy, well the right one. We should have been doing all we could to further develop the game in France. That means more than one club and any spare cash or time/effort invested in France. A meaningful goal to have more French clubs in SL, and then stronger competition in France/England games. Using any potential profit to invest in France. So on and so fore, even if all games France/England games in France and all monies into French RL, etc etc... e.g this strategic nonsense with Toronto or any other NA club when we could instead be pushing to have Toulouse into SL, and look to further develop French RL. The strategy wouldn't allow Exiles game no matter what somebodies self interest may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 2 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said: Are you going to try and use a World Cup to justify playing France? We’ve got proof that World Cup’s do well for ticketing (who would have guessed it?) but you can’t have a World Cup every year. Attendances against France in a non-World Cup or tournament game have not commanded a five figure crowd for some time. Nope... I am suggesting meaning competitions rather than last minute organised friendly matches in Leigh. The game vs Scotland in Coventry (!) is a perfect example of what can be achieved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bedfordshire Bronco Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 I think a handicap system is the way forward Seed all teams and make them drink a certain number of beers before kick off England (4 pints each) vs France Australia (3 pints each plus 3 cigarettes) vs England Worth a shout? Decent booze/snouts sponsorship too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
17 stone giant Posted October 30, 2020 Share Posted October 30, 2020 England should be playing France at least once every year. Plus there should be an overall strategy within the sport for helping France develop. Realistically they are the best bet for producing another competitive northern hemisphere team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 22 hours ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said: I think a handicap system is the way forward Seed all teams and make them drink a certain number of beers before kick off England (4 pints each) vs France Australia (3 pints each plus 3 cigarettes) vs England Worth a shout? Decent booze/snouts sponsorship too Australia tie their bootlaces together. Given the intense game last night, a similar Origin game, with England places at stake, might be worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonM Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 21 hours ago, Rupert Prince said: Given the intense game last night, a similar Origin game, with England places at stake, might be worthwhile. Or realistically, a half-hearted game played midweek before 5000 at Leigh or Headingley. Half the Lancashire/ West of Pennine + random draftees team will have pulled out with groin strains/ unspecified other injury that magically heals before the next SL game in the week beforehand, as no-one really cares about the outcome. Just like it has been for the last previous ~125 years. It wasn't even a popular concept in the 1900s, why would it suddenly attract an audience now? It was only 2016 when we had 21k for an England v Scotland four nations game at Coventry. That's a measure of just how dismal the RFL has been in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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