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New TV deal negotiations / Perilous finances (Merged threads)


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6 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Who gives the most as a % to their second tier? Super League, NRL, Premiership football, Premiership Rugby Union? That’s the question I’m asking. How is that a criticism of lower league clubs?

Given that every Queensland Cup team bar the PNG Hunters us affiliated with an NRL club , the system is completely different , so comparisons are irrelivant 

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2 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It’s very similar to our dual registration 

No , it is a much closer relationship than our DR system , and is the same in NSW , completely different models , so completely irrelivant 

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16 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

Who gives the most as a % to their second tier? Super League, NRL, Premiership football, Premiership Rugby Union? That’s the question I’m asking. How is that a criticism of lower league clubs? 

I'll ask a question which one of those doesn't have P and R ? 

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

But maybe Fev are where they are because they have not been in Super League doing what Wakefield have done? Being in the Championship has allowed them to live sustainably within their means and grow. If we had a role reversal for 22 years between Fev and Wakefield then maybe Fev would be like Wakefield now and vice versa.

Super League is not some sort of panacea. Scraping to get by and clinging on in Super League by your fingertips is no good for many clubs. We have leagues so that all clubs can have a place for their level and there is no shame in that.

It's not just about Fev and Wakey though is it? There's very little difference between Salford & Leigh, or between Cas & Bradford, or Huddersfield & Halifax, or Hull KR & Widnes, yet some want to give the sitting tenants a lifetime pass and leave the others out in the cold for years and years.

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3 minutes ago, Steve Slater said:

It's not just about Fev and Wakey though is it? There's very little difference between Salford & Leigh, or between Cas & Bradford, or Huddersfield & Halifax, or Hull KR & Widnes, yet some want to give the sitting tenants a lifetime pass and leave the others out in the cold for years and years.

Well your post and argument consisted largely of a direct comparison between Wakefield and Fev, hence my question. I think the point I made is very valid but I understand if you wish to dodge it. 

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45 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

It would give some indication of how generous our deal is for Championship clubs. It’s inevitable Championship will say they should keep their current level of funding, some Super League clubs will say Championship clubs should get less, you can use comparisons to help for a fair judgement.

You could do the same comparison with Premiership RU and Championship RU or Premier League and Championship Football. 

The NSW & Qld cups are nothing like the Championship.

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5 hours ago, THE RED ROOSTER said:

Third point taking this into account - how can you sell a sport which has a regional reach in the UK around the M62. The other Sports, with one exception, have national appeal Rugby League does not by choice, so the question of how many households will forgo SKY MOVIES, SKY's multi-channel platform and other sports on SKY just because there is no Rugby League. For sure you have the fanatics on this board, but any calculating SKY exceutive would know when England v Samoa was broadcast on PPV in 2017 it attracted circa 1,000 subscribers. So you could put up with the cancelled subs from the WF7 and M29 postcodes.

This is the point which those who post suggestions such as mergers/joint ventures between the weaker traditional clubs to play against the less weak traditional clubs overlook.  I'll repeat what former St Helens CEO Sean McGuire said in his interviews with Tony Collins: with the possible exception of Leeds all of the traditional clubs are located in what he described as "smallish, economically disadvantaged towns".  No combination of those clubs which any of us could ever envision can ever bring in the sort of money needed to keep pace with the competition (namely soccer and RU).  Something radically different is required for RL to have a future as a pro sport in the northern hemisphere.

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7 hours ago, Damien said:

But maybe Fev are where they are because they have not been in Super League doing what Wakefield have done? Being in the Championship has allowed them to live sustainably within their means and grow. If we had a role reversal for 22 years between Fev and Wakefield then maybe Fev would be like Wakefield now and vice versa.

Super League is not some sort of panacea. Scraping to get by and clinging on in Super League by your fingertips is no good for many clubs. We have leagues so that all clubs can have a place for their level and there is no shame in that.

This is the problem though, we call the top level Super League but we don’t have many clubs worthy of the definition, we have a so called big group (Wigan, Saints, Wire, Leeds, Hull FC, Cats), then the rest, pretty much all of whom could interchange with nearby championship clubs but for the TV funding. If that were to happen in say 5 years time those clubs would not have broken into the big group, rather they would be scraping to get by. We just don’t have enough big clubs to create a true SL, at least not in the way it was envisioned. We lost Bradford due to some serious financial mismanagement, London is undercapitalized and the clubs that have the potential to grow and be big (Toulouse, Toronto, Ottawa, Newcastle, even York), have as many question marks against them as they have merits, if not more. It’s a major conundrum and it’s one I’m not sure the RL leadership can address.

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4 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

This is the point which those who post suggestions such as mergers/joint ventures between the weaker traditional clubs to play against the less weak traditional clubs overlook.  I'll repeat what former St Helens CEO Sean McGuire said in his interviews with Tony Collins: with the possible exception of Leeds all of the traditional clubs are located in what he described as "smallish, economically disadvantaged towns".  No combination of those clubs which any of us could ever envision can ever bring in the sort of money needed to keep pace with the competition (namely soccer and RU).  Something radically different is required for RL to have a future as a pro sport in the northern hemisphere.

Yes , we know 😂

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1 minute ago, Oldbear said:

This is the problem though, we call the top level Super League but we don’t have many clubs worthy of the definition, we have a so called big group (Wigan, Saints, Wire, Leeds, Hull FC, Cats), then the rest, pretty much all of whom could interchange with nearby championship clubs but for the TV funding. If that were to happen in say 5 years time those clubs would not have broken into the big group, rather they would be scraping to get by. We just don’t have enough big clubs to create a true SL, at least not in the way it was envisioned. We lost Bradford due to some serious financial mismanagement, London is undercapitalized and the clubs that have the potential to grow and be big (Toulouse, Toronto, Ottawa, Newcastle, even York), have as many question marks against them as they have merits, if not more. It’s a major conundrum and it’s one I’m not sure the RL leadership can address.

So who can ?

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

So who can ?

Wish I knew buddy, it just amuses me every time there’s a discussion about league restructuring and franchising, when we don’t have enough teams who would truly (without rule bending or artists impressions) pass the criteria for such a comp.

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Just now, Oldbear said:

Wish I knew buddy, it just amuses me every time there’s a discussion about league restructuring and franchising, when we don’t have enough teams who would truly (without rule bending or artists impressions) pass the criteria for such a comp.

Some of us have been pointing out this fact for the best part of 20 years 

The thing is as I've often put , everybody wants the sport to grow , as long as they and their club are part of it , does that apply to you ?

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10 minutes ago, Oldbear said:

Wish I knew buddy, it just amuses me every time there’s a discussion about league restructuring and franchising, when we don’t have enough teams who would truly (without rule bending or artists impressions) pass the criteria for such a comp.

If we were strict with a licensing criteria be it what the last one was made up or any other, we’d have a league of 4-6 teams at the very most and I think I’m probably being kind on one or two teams there. You can’t then lower standards but only let some in, not all. 

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9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , we know 😂

You laughing about what I said won't the change the fact of the matter one iota.  You don't seriously think that a league with "Calder", "Cumbria", "South Yorkshire", "Humberside" et. al. would boost the value of the TV rights from their present level do you?

8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So who can ?

No one within the existing British RL structure, they're all wedded to/embedded in the small time thinking and practices (such as refusing Glasgow back in 1953 because of concern over travel costs and sacrificing Gateshead and Sheffield to save Hull and Huddersfield in 1999) which have put the sport in the position it's in now.  Only a whole new organization built for the purpose can address the conundrum which @Oldbear described and whether you like it or not that's just how it is.

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

You laughing about what I said won't the change the fact of the matter one iota.  You don't seriously think that a league with "Calder", "Cumbria", "South Yorkshire", "Humberside" et. al. would boost the value of the TV rights from their present level do you?

No one within the existing British RL structure, they're all wedded to/embedded in the small time thinking and practices (such as refusing Glasgow back in 1953 because of concern over travel costs and sacrificing Gateshead and Sheffield to save Hull and Huddersfield in 1999) which have put the sport in the position it's in now.  Only a whole new organization built for the purpose can address the conundrum which @Oldbear described and whether you like it or not that's just how it is.

Yes , we know 😂

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

Yes , we know 😂

So with all your experience in running an RL club, how would you solve the conundrum which @Oldbear described, bearing in mind how Sean McGuire characterized the towns where the sport's traditional clubs are all located?  Or are you resigned to seeing the game continue to fall further and further behind soccer and RU until John Kear's prediction of there not being any pro RL in Britain within 20 years of when he said that a few years ago is realized?

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1 minute ago, Big Picture said:

So with all your experience in running an RL club, how would you solve the conundrum which @Oldbear described, bearing in mind how Sean McGuire characterized the towns where the sport's traditional clubs are all located?  Or are you resigned to seeing the game continue to fall further and further behind soccer and RU until John Kear's prediction of there not being any pro RL in Britain within 20 years of when he said that a few years ago is realized?

We've alway been behind soccer and indeed unon , we always will be , but that doesn't mean we cannot continue and indeed grow and expand 

When you find this sports guru with a billion to burn on your idea , give me a bell , I'll happily spend some of it 

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1 minute ago, GUBRATS said:

We've alway been behind soccer and indeed unon , we always will be , but that doesn't mean we cannot continue and indeed grow and expand 

When you find this sports guru with a billion to burn on your idea , give me a bell , I'll happily spend some of it 

But the sport isn’t growing 

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2 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said:

NRL clubs each get $13M a season from their tv deal. It’d be interesting to know what Queensland Cup teams get (Aussie 2nd tier) and how that compares as a % of the NRL clubs figure compared to Championship clubs funding as a % of Super League clubs figure.

I can understand your question. I think that the NRL would pay the NSWRL, QRL, WARL etc a certain amount of block funding, depending on the size of their respective competitions. Many NSW Cup teams are attached to smaller suburban, but still relatively large Leagues Clubs for example North Sydney, Ryde-Eastwood, Mounties, Blacktown Workers,,etc. which would contribute to running a League team. The players would all be part-time but could add a very handy supplement to their income. Often a first grade team will partner up, the way Manly does with Blacktown Workers, completely other side of the city, to run a team in the NSW Cup. And this keeps the costs down in this area for them. Cronulla do the same with Newtown, these allegiances seem to chop and change regularly.

As far as the third tier which would be country Rugby League, some of these clubs would be attached to small country League clubs but many would be run through volunteers and local sponsors, I have heard in the past that players may get some money for a win, and they might sign an ex-NRL player as Captain coach, but they would only be on a few thousand plus a job. They wouldn`t be full time.

They have merged the NSW Country Rugby League into the NSWRL to streamline the whole thing, I know it was like pulling teeth, what with vested interests and turf wars, but they got it done and it was a big deal. So funding for country rugby league would come directly through NSWRL. I will try and find out some figures and get back to you.

 

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