Super League 2021

[fighting irish]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

How do you explain years of financial issues at Toronto that included players not being paid on time and other associated bills not being paid and Toronto taken to court?

My first reaction, was to ignore this but I'll try to respond respectfully.

I don't know enough about each or any of the instances you refer to, to offer an explanation.

I can think of many possible reasons why such things might occur but just don't know the actual reasons. Do you?

What I do know is this. That this man, in an attempt to spread our game in a new territory, shouldering an eye-watering, enormous and massive financial burden, bigger than any in the history of the game, was never, ever made to feel welcome by Robert Elstone. 

[Hela Wigmen]

Just now, Eddie said:

SL were against Toronto before they even started, so those items that you cherry pick to justify their exclusion (despite this being a new regime) aren’t really relevant. 

Neither’s a business plan for you, either. 

Super League were seemingly apprehensive about the Toronto Wolfpack given their past activities and added issues that comes with running a transatlantic team. It would appear that Super League’s apprehension and wariness was well founded. 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, fighting irish said:

My first reaction, was to ignore this but I'll try to respond respectfully.

I don't know enough about each or any of the instances you refer to, to offer an explanation.

I can think of many possible reasons why such things might occur but just don't know the actual reasons. Do you?

What I do know is this. That this man, in an attempt to spread our game in a new territory, shouldering an eye-watering, enormous and massive financial burden, bigger than any in the history of the game, was never, ever made to feel welcome by Robert Elstone. 

But if you’re failing to pay players on time and failing to pay your bills, can you not understand why Super League and Elstone would be wary of their presence in their competition and seek assurances? I certainly can. 

[fighting irish]

9 minutes ago, redjonn said:

the agenda dictates that we air brush those aspects out...

I trust that my response to Hela Wigmen (above) is adequate to deal with this thinly disguised swipe also. 

[Eddie]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Neither’s a business plan for you, either. 

Super League were seemingly apprehensive about the Toronto Wolfpack given their past activities and added issues that comes with running a transatlantic team. It would appear that Super League’s apprehension and wariness was well founded. 

If SL had been supportive of Toronto they wouldn’t have run into the financial mess that they did, so they created the situation that you are now applauding them for being apprehensive about.
 

If they didn’t want them in they should have said at the start, and not allowed one man to waste £20m and countless others their time and money also just to kick them out when they felt able to. It’s disrespectful to say the least. 

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, Eddie said:

If SL had been supportive of Toronto they wouldn’t have run into the financial mess that they did, so they created the situation that you are now applauding them for being apprehensive about.
 

If they didn’t want them in they should have said at the start, and not allowed one man to waste £20m and countless others their time and money also just to kick them out when they felt able to. It’s disrespectful to say the least. 

Failing to pay people on time, both players and others, would suggest that they were already heading toward the financial abyss before Super League raised questions before they were promoted.

They met the criteria at the time to join the RFL and again once Super League allowed them to be promoted, so they were wanted. To go off on a tangent, what that criteria was, from both the RFL and Super League, needs to be discussed because too many times our “expansion” has been nothing more than someone with an interest in the game dumping a pin in a map and hoping it worked. There’s no plan from the IRL, RFL or Super League and no help financially, physically or anything else. And we wonder why it doesn’t work. 

[redjonn]

3 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

I trust that my response to Hela Wigmen (above) is adequate to deal with this thinly disguised swipe also. 

the comment wasn't aimed at yourself as I have not read your comment... my comment is aimed at those that chose to ignore those aspects mentioned...

I'm assuming you didn't but if you read it as a thinly disguised swipe so be it... but I'm surprised as normally I mean to be very clear with any swipes, comments, etc whether deriding, supporting or just putting my opinion.

 

[redjonn]

14 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

My first reaction, was to ignore this but I'll try to respond respectfully.

I don't know enough about each or any of the instances you refer to, to offer an explanation.

I can think of many possible reasons why such things might occur but just don't know the actual reasons. Do you?

What I do know is this. That this man, in an attempt to spread our game in a new territory, shouldering an eye-watering, enormous and massive financial burden, bigger than any in the history of the game, was never, ever made to feel welcome by Robert Elstone. 

Personally what I've seen reported I think Elstone had a good case as to why expansion into Canada may not have been the best of idea's.  We expect him to show leadership and to do so speaking out - now we may disagree with him but speaking on behalf of the organization as to difficulties with the idea seems fine to me.

As to what he says in private i have no idea but he may have tried to help them for all I know.

[superten]

We really need to look at Catalan and Toulouse being in the leagues next season . No ones how travel will be affected with covid . Toulouse must be a big question with them playing against part time players. If quarantine is still around for travel . I think there's two options for the leagues option one is to promote Toulouse and risk going with 12 team super league 14 championship and 10 league one . OPTION 2 is more bold  omit Catalan and toulouse from league and with Toronto gone that would leave 32 clubs . Promote 6 from championship to super league and have the rest of championship clubs join league one to create two leagues of 16 . With one up one down this gives the six a real chance to get established in super league .     

[fighting irish]

18 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

But if you’re failing to pay players on time and failing to pay your bills, can you not understand why Super League and Elstone would be wary of their presence in their competition and seek assurances? I certainly can. 

These things are suspect and regrettable and no doubt would cause the other owners to raise an eyebrow (and I imagine, recall the bible story of how Jesus saved Mary Magdalene from being stoned to death).

Let's not forget, that the greater suffering to players, was caused after Toronto's withdrawal and what I'm saying is, that I wouldn't be surprised to discover that a wounded Argyle acted angrily and hastily, in response to a significant amount of provocation by Mr Elstone. 

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, redjonn said:

Personally what I've seen reported I think Elstone had a good case as to why expansion into Canada may not have been the best of idea's.  We expect him to show leadership and to do so speaking out - now we may disagree with him but speaking on behalf of the organization as to difficulties with the idea seems fine to me.

As to what he says in private i have no idea but he may have tried to help them for all I know.

The time for Elstone to show leadership was before Toronto was admitted by giving Toronto an equal say,  equal funding and by giving SL a clear strategy going forward. He did nothing, didn't really want them and mumbled through but reluctantly admitted them because that's what the big clubs wanted. He showed no leadership whatsoever and speaking out after the event is not leadership.

[Eddie]

20 minutes ago, superten said:

We really need to look at Catalan and Toulouse being in the leagues next season . No ones how travel will be affected with covid . Toulouse must be a big question with them playing against part time players. If quarantine is still around for travel . I think there's two options for the leagues option one is to promote Toulouse and risk going with 12 team super league 14 championship and 10 league one . OPTION 2 is more bold  omit Catalan and toulouse from league and with Toronto gone that would leave 32 clubs . Promote 6 from championship to super league and have the rest of championship clubs join league one to create two leagues of 16 . With one up one down this gives the six a real chance to get established in super league .     

What would happen to Catalans and Toulouse then? Cut them adrift?

[redjonn]

8 minutes ago, Damien said:

The time for Elstone to show leadership was before Toronto was admitted by giving Toronto an equal say,  equal funding and by giving SL a clear strategy going forward. He did nothing, didn't really want them and mumbled through but reluctantly admitted them because that's what the big clubs wanted. He showed no leadership whatsoever and speaking out after the event is not leadership.

I guess his clear strategy was that it was nonsensical to have a NA club and expansion into Canada as part of a league here.   Something I would agree with.

You identify an organisational issue as to what Elstone role is.   He may have shown strong leadership within the organisation in putting forward his views and persuading. I would suggest he has a more  restricted role than you imply.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, redjonn said:

I guess his clear strategy was that it was nonsensical to have a NA club and expansion into Canada as part of a league here.   Something I would agree with.

You identify an organisational issue as to what Elstone role is.   He may have shown strong leadership within the organisation in putting forward his views and persuading. O would suggest he has a more  restricted role than you imply.

If he is not showing leadership, not displaying a strategy to drive the game forward and is simply just going with whatever the wind blows to stay in power then there is no point in paying him £500,000 or whatever he gets. Elstone was appointed to reshape Super League and to have a vision to make it better. At the moment he is offering nothing and is a waste of money.

[Hela Wigmen]

It’s going to be twelve next year, seems to be the noises coming from the meeting. 

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

It’s going to be twelve next year, seems to be the noises coming from the meeting. 

Indeed, I cannot for the ensuing bunfight

[Robin Evans]

One team to be promoted for next season. I would imagine toulouse

[Chrispmartha]

Personally and I don’t know whether this will be a popular opinion but Id give the place to London or Toulouse, if we keep relegation and promotion make them exempt for 3 years and also give cap exemptions but whichever team they have to show a robust business plan.

I would like to see London given the place. Ive always thought having a London based teams adds to the SL comp

[Hela Wigmen]

I don’t see the point of engaging in promoting Toulouse without any form of strategy or partnership between the game here, the Federation in France and the IRL, much like Toronto were set up to fail due to a lack of anything resembling a plan for them. I feel it would be the same thing with Toulouse. 

That said, given we won’t bother actually looking beyond the end of our nose, promote them. I’d rather a weekend in Toulouse than a return bus trip to Leigh. 

[DI Keith Fowler]

Whoever it is will likely get relegated, how can they put a team together from the point of being admitted (surely several weeks away?) to the start of the new season?

 

[Chrispmartha]

1 minute ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Whoever it is will likely get relegated, how can they put a team together from the point of being admitted (surely several weeks away?) to the start of the new season?

 

They would have to be exempt from relegation for at least a year and have cap exemptions.

[Robin Evans]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

I don’t see the point of engaging in promoting Toulouse without any form of strategy or partnership between the game here, the Federation in France and the IRL, much like Toronto were set up to fail due to a lack of anything resembling a plan for them. I feel it would be the same thing with Toulouse. 

That said, given we won’t bother actually looking beyond the end of our nose, promote them. I’d rather a weekend in Toulouse than a return bus trip to Leigh. 

Mate.... I live in Rovrum..... everywhere is better

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

Whoever it is will likely get relegated, how can they put a team together from the point of being admitted (surely several weeks away?) to the start of the new season?

 

We’ve not heard anything on whether there even is relegation next year, quite possibly due to the lack of guarantee around rugby league being played outside of Super League. 

[Robin Evans]

Just now, Chrispmartha said:

They would have to be exempt from relegation for at least a year and have cap exemptions.

Yes. Whichever team it is.

Speaking as a wearer of a flat cap, there is no way on earth can a championship side be SL by Feb. Just cant

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Hela Wigmen said:

We’ve not heard anything on whether there even is relegation next year, quite possibly due to the lack of guarantee around rugby league being played outside of Super League. 

I'm told Matthew Shaw is reporting one team will be promoted