Ask not for whom the bell tolls

[Tonka]

I'm a fan of the expansion of the game.  And I liked the Toronto idea.  But a big flaw is how you keep introducing US/Canadian clubs, at the inevitable expense of UK/French clubs, until they get big enough to sustain themselves (at which point you'd have to reintroduce the clubs that were kicked out).  Clearly it would be amazing if the US/Canada had a viable league, but they are some way off that and you do risk damaging Super League by introducing too many US/Canadian clubs.  Equally, keeping Super League as it is but with two or three US/Canadian clubs doesn't propel the game onto the world stage as we'd all like.

It's a flippin tricky one this.  But at the moment it's a bit worst of all worlds.

(I'm ignoring Covid for this post because I'm sick of talking about it)

[Tonka]

7 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

That Sonny Bill’s brother, Luke?

Haha  - "Lukey Bill with the hit!"

[ckn]

Come on... can you just please debate this without it getting into personal abuse with each other? That's the third report on this this morning.

Take your road-rage posting elsewhere if you can't stop.

[ckn]

2 minutes ago, Tonka said:

I'm a fan of the expansion of the game.  And I liked the Toronto idea.  But a big flaw is how you keep introducing US/Canadian clubs, at the inevitable expense of UK/French clubs, until they get big enough to sustain themselves (at which point you'd have to reintroduce the clubs that were kicked out).  Clearly it would be amazing if the US/Canada had a viable league, but they are some way off that and you do risk damaging Super League by introducing too many US/Canadian clubs.  Equally, keeping Super League as it is but with two or three US/Canadian clubs doesn't propel the game onto the world stage as we'd all like.

It's a flippin tricky one this.  But at the moment it's a bit worst of all worlds.

(I'm ignoring Covid for this post because I'm sick of talking about it)

Back when Catalans were invited in, the big "sell" for me was that it was to get them to a standard where it attracted more French pro clubs capable of creating their own pro league. At that time, Catalans would go back to being a French club and SL would become a UK league. That, to me, is a great model for helping rugby league expand at the pro level.

I can't see how SL and RL in the UK can cope with more than a couple of expansion clubs in each league without collapsing it all. I really can't see how semi-pro leagues can have even one without severe financial consequences unless there's a big-funder willing to underwrite all things like travel, covering expenses for those not fully-pro and so on.

I agree with you, it's a great ideal but the practicality makes it a very hard sell these days.

[Tonka]

100% agree with you ckn.  

[Damien]

27 minutes ago, superten said:

The problem with some new clubs they climb the leagues to quick . We have seen it all to often . They buy a bunch of second rate pros or players coming to the end of there careers . Which are good enough to get you out of league one and the championship but are no where near good enough as a team for super league . Add to this the clubs have not then given themselves time to nature there own players and youth development . They get into super league and find no teams want to sell them any other there good players . They then have to pay over inflated prices and wages to try and compete just with the worst sides in super league . 

The bit in bold is very true. It is the problem that some have but certainly not for the reasons you cite.

Also some clubs? What clubs have done this and climbed from League 1 to SL other than Toronto? Lets face it you talk of some clubs just to disguise a dig at Toronto.

[OMEGA]

11 hours ago, Roy Haggerty said:

The Toronto decision isn't significant just because of that poor, mucked-about, betrayed club. It's significant because of what it says about our whole sport in this country.
<SNIP>

This was written back in June before the decision to deny Toronto a Super League return.

It’s 11:59 & the clocks ticking!

Rugby League in the UK is in deep decline & has been for 20+ years

We MUST sort out how we want to structure the game & how we want it to function as a sport from U6s/Schools/Amateur/Youth Pathways/P&R/Internationals/Quotas/Caps & who governs what.

The decline in participation numbers and the loss of whole clubs from the amateur game should be sending forks of lightning down the spine of those responsible for the game. We rely on those clubs to provide the player base that feeds the entire Professional game, that base has shrunk alarmingly in just the last decade. 

In my locality alone we have lost what we’re strong Amateur clubs. We have recognisable clubs who once ran 16 teams at all age groups now running just 1 to 4 teams but no one seems to be concerned with this at the RFL or SL headquarters.

We’ve wasted tens of £Millions filling the bank accounts of agents & overseas players. Far too little money has been spent reinforcing the games roots, in fact we have wilfully ignored them!

A radical change in strategical thinking & subsequent restructure is desperately needed!

We are rapidly approaching or one poor TV contract away from being in the situation Maurice Lyndsey described in 1995, with the game being close to bankruptcy!

The days of SKY TV money shoring up the game may be coming to an end! 

The acquisition of SKY by Nth American giant Comcast could offer a lifeline but it will almost certainly be influenced by the presence of Toronto &/or others from their continent.

If we get a significant TV deal from Comcast/SKY then its imperative we learn from the mistakes of the last 20+ years

We have to find a better balance between having a strong premier competition & heavy investment in the foundations of the game. We must rebuild from the bottom up or we will just delay the inevitable again.

It’s 11:59 & the clock is ticking!

[Tonka]

Maybe time for something different - a little chip over the top, perhaps?

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, Tonka said:

Maybe time for something different - a little chip over the top, perhaps?

This is more like the RL equivalent of doing something different:

 

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

This is more than RL equivalent:

 

Oh I bet Ainy will just love seeing this again.....

[MattSantos]

The Toronto decision in isolation makes sense. Against a backdrop of Covid etc, i can understand it.

Not getting a split of the tv money signalled that the game at the elite level is run by cornershop, self centred businessmen. 

I've been wanting to pin some hope on a strategic vision for years and its clear that theres not one coming. Its the hope that kills you, but i'll be rate as ive lost all hope for the sport as an elite comp in the UK and then by proxy, the International game. 

The world cup will bring me back, but i fear that it may be the last one...

[MattSantos]

1 hour ago, OMEGA said:

This was written back in June before the decision to deny Toronto a Super League return.

It’s 11:59 & the clocks ticking!

Rugby League in the UK is in deep decline & has been for 20+ years

We MUST sort out how we want to structure the game & how we want it to function as a sport from U6s/Schools/Amateur/Youth Pathways/P&R/Internationals/Quotas/Caps & who governs what.

The decline in participation numbers and the loss of whole clubs from the amateur game should be sending forks of lightning down the spine of those responsible for the game. We rely on those clubs to provide the player base that feeds the entire Professional game, that base has shrunk alarmingly in just the last decade. 

In my locality alone we have lost what we’re strong Amateur clubs. We have recognisable clubs who once ran 16 teams at all age groups now running just 1 to 4 teams but no one seems to be concerned with this at the RFL or SL headquarters.

We’ve wasted tens of £Millions filling the bank accounts of agents & overseas players. Far too little money has been spent reinforcing the games roots, in fact we have wilfully ignored them!

A radical change in strategical thinking & subsequent restructure is desperately needed!

We are rapidly approaching or one poor TV contract away from being in the situation Maurice Lyndsey described in 1995, with the game being close to bankruptcy!

The days of SKY TV money shoring up the game may be coming to an end! 

The acquisition of SKY by Nth American giant Comcast could offer a lifeline but it will almost certainly be influenced by the presence of Toronto &/or others from their continent.

If we get a significant TV deal from Comcast/SKY then its imperative we learn from the mistakes of the last 20+ years

We have to find a better balance between having a strong premier competition & heavy investment in the foundations of the game. We must rebuild from the bottom up or we will just delay the inevitable again.

It’s 11:59 & the clock is ticking!

This. How we can have elite clubs without youth structures baffles me. 

From a sporting governance perspective, its criminal. 

Theyre stewards of our sport and theyre ###### ruining it. Selfish pricks

[del capo]

10 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

This. How we can have elite clubs without youth structures baffles me. 

From a sporting governance perspective, its criminal. 

Theyre stewards of our sport and theyre ###### ruining it. Selfish pricks

We have 15,617 open age players and 4,704 at 16+

We have just 354  Community clubs left fielding 1,835 teams.

Those are from the latest RFL stats, and the RFL anticipate a 40% loss due to the lockdown.

There are 2,131 professional players with an average shelf life of 5 years

 So to all those SL owners If you were running a business  to stay in the game, ( other than rugby ) where would your priorities lie ?

[MattSantos]

1 minute ago, del capo said:

We have 15,617 open age players and 4,704 at 16+

We have just 354  Community clubs left fielding 1,835 teams.

Those are from the latest RFL stats, and the RFL anticipate a 40% loss due to the lockdown.

There are 2,131 professional players with an average shelf life of 5 years

 So to all those SL owners If you were running a business  to stay in the game, ( other than rugby ) where would your priorities lie ?

SL owners shouldnt be the ones in charge to make decisions that impact the long term sustainability of the sport. 

[Gooleboy]

2 minutes ago, MattSantos said:

SL owners shouldnt be the ones in charge to make decisions that impact the long term sustainability of the sport. 

Agreed, but two years ago when the SL Clubs decided to break away from the RFL to govern their own destiny, and appointed Elstone in a fanfare saying how good things were going to be now they had rid themselves of the influence of Lower League Clubs, their were plenty on here in full support of what they were doing. Maybe not so after what happened yesterday.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

But the exact same question was asked of Leeds, St Helens and Catalans who voted in favour of Toronto?

If it had been a unanimous rejection it might be easier to criticise those posters.

Because it wasn’t and because of the standing of those clubs within the game, it lends weight to posters’ arguments that the wrong verdict was reached.

And exactly the same could be said, about Brexit, Boris becoming PM, A Tory landslide victory and Trump's win 4 years ago, all of those where very unpopular to the majority of poster's on these pages, but for some reason they think that the minority vote should rule, get over it Gerrum and accept the majority verdict albeit I expect like the other subjects the losers will keep screaming and stamping their feet for a long time to come.

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

And exactly the same could be said, about Brexit, Boris becoming PM, A Tory landslide victory and Trump's win 4 years ago, all of those where very unpopular to the majority of poster's on these pages, but for some reason they think that the minority vote should rule, get over it Gerrum and accept the majority verdict albeit I expect like the other subjects the losers will keep screaming and stamping their feet for a long time to come.

Aye .... Im still in hissy fit mode over those political issues!!!!

At least this one has gone the way I expected....

[del capo]

4 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

And exactly the same could be said, about Brexit, Boris becoming PM, A Tory landslide victory and Trump's win 4 years ago, all of those where very unpopular to the majority of poster's on these pages, but for some reason they think that the minority vote should rule, get over it Gerrum and accept the majority verdict albeit I expect like the other subjects the losers will keep screaming and stamping their feet for a long time to come.

Leigh the new Tory stronghold.

Who would have believed it ?

Anything can happen after that........

[ckn]

This all started years ago. More than a few of us on here were furious that Development Officers were cut to save money at exactly the same time as more money went into pro and semi-pro clubs. The commentary at the time from those of us with an eye to the future was "where do you think young players come from?"

Short-sighted views repeatedly made with a view only to this year and leave next year to someone else.

Rugby league really is its own worst enemy at times.

[ckn]

Just now, ckn said:

This all started years ago. More than a few of us on here were furious that Development Officers were cut to save money at exactly the same time as more money went into pro and semi-pro clubs. The commentary at the time from those of us with an eye to the future was "where do you think young players come from?"

Short-sighted views repeatedly made with a view only to this year and leave next year to someone else.

Rugby league really is its own worst enemy at times.

Add to that Sport England making it clear its funding was contingent on national development then us sacking those Development Officers except for those few northern areas with local pro clubs who shouldered the burden themselves.

[Hela Wigmen]

1 minute ago, ckn said:

 

Short-sighted views repeatedly made with a view only to this year and leave next year to someone else.

Rugby league really is its own worst enemy at times.

Exactly this and that’s exactly why I fail to see why we now pin our hopes on a French TV deal in the shape of Toulouse joining Catalans, if we don’t bother to put together a plan for Toulouse in a similar way to what we did when Catalans come in. Exemptions from relegation and a bigger salary cap are just the tip of the iceberg but inevitably, they’ll be thrown into the deep end and will have to sink or swim. 

[Harry Stottle]

11 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Aye .... Im still in hissy fit mode over those political issues!!!!

At least this one has gone the way I expected....

At least I can say I have not (has far as expectations and voting apart from Trump) been on the losing side yet ............................. including yesterday!

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, ckn said:

This all started years ago. More than a few of us on here were furious that Development Officers were cut to save money at exactly the same time as more money went into pro and semi-pro clubs. The commentary at the time from those of us with an eye to the future was "where do you think young players come from?"

Short-sighted views repeatedly made with a view only to this year and leave next year to someone else.

Rugby league really is its own worst enemy at times.

Good point. Most of the game's issues are completely related and we need a whole game approach to move forward. Too many people look at all these little things in isolation, and are only concerned with their own club, rather than seeing the knock on effects. At the moment it feels like death by a thousand cuts.

[Harry Stottle]

12 minutes ago, del capo said:

Leigh the new Tory stronghold.

Who would have believed it ?

Anything can happen after that........

Another prediction I shared with this forum only to be riduculed, well up to polling day that was then it all went quiet, apart from a couple of congratulatory posts.

[del capo]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Another prediction I shared with this forum only to be riduculed, well up to polling day that was then it all went quiet, apart from a couple of congratulatory posts.

See you in 4 years if I'm still around.....