Promotion to Super League

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, Wanderer said:

blue hoops, too many teams play in red

Dammit didn't consider that for Fev or Fax!

[GUBRATS]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Lets look at all the prospective clubs USPs (if there is any), Strengths and Weaknesses. I promise I'm trying to do this fairly and impartially. I didn't think to add "ambitious" as clearly all are.

Leigh 

-Strengths: recent Super League experience, financial capacity, stadium, solid supporter base, full time ish?

-Weaknesses: financial collapse in 2018 following relegation/temperamental owner, proximity to other Super League clubs, no USP

Widnes

-Strengths: stadium, recent super league experience, academy?, strong supporter base

-Weaknesses: finances, no USP

London

- Strengths: recent Super League experience, Full time, owner funding, major city, academy

-Weaknesses: stadium

-USPs: British Capital/South of England coverage, team Toronto replaced

Toulouse

-Strengths: Major city, stadium, finances, reserves

-Weaknesses: unproven crowd/no SL experience

-USPs: French derby, continental expansion, potential for French TV deal

Bradford

-Strengths: major city in RL heartland, previous success, crowd potential, no SL team in the council area, academy

-Weaknesses: finances, not playing in Bradford, stadium

- USPs: major city in RL heartland, only club in the list with proven ability to draw 5 figure crowds

Fev

-Strengths: ok stadium

- Weaknesses: limited growth potential, 2 SL teams already questions over funding/full time status

-USP: team beaten by Toronto in 2019 Championship final

Halifax

-Strengths: ok stadium, no team in council area,

-Weaknesses: financial capacity, limited on field strength, no USP

York

-Strengths: Stadium, no SL team in immediate proximity, coach very well thought of

-Weaknesses: not proven on field with full timers, financial question marks

-USP: Northern city without previous SL representation

Not a lot to disagree wit Tommy , but explain how relying almost fully on the owners ' funding ' is a positive ?

And Bradford's 5 figure crowds ? , Seriously ? 

We didn't collapse 

[Eddie]

21 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

Probably as much as Wakefield & KR,maybe make all clubs apply and pick the best 12

KR bring the derby (which is great) and significantly more fans than Wakefield. 
 

Carter was on a podcast today saying there are too many teams in the three divisions and we have to look at what some of them bring. I did at that point wonder what his team bring, other than perpetual relegation battles and sparse crowds in a garden shed of a ground. 

[Tommygilf]

Just now, GUBRATS said:

Not a lot to disagree wit Tommy , but explain how relying almost fully on the owners ' funding ' is a positive ?

And Bradford's 5 figure crowds ? , Seriously ? 

With a 800k funding gap for the 12th club, an owner capable of going some way to plugging that is a major plus, as are strong finances in general.

Bradford are the only club there with a proven ability to get regular 5 figure crowds in the past 15 years. None of the others can claim that. Though clearly that is cancelled out by the weaknesses points imo.

[Eddie]

11 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Lets look at all the prospective clubs USPs (if there is any), Strengths and Weaknesses. I promise I'm trying to do this fairly and impartially. I didn't think to add "ambitious" as clearly all are.

Leigh 

-Strengths: recent Super League experience, financial capacity, stadium, solid supporter base, full time ish?

-Weaknesses: financial collapse in 2018 following relegation/temperamental owner, proximity to other Super League clubs, no USP

Widnes

-Strengths: stadium, recent super league experience, academy?, strong supporter base

-Weaknesses: finances, no USP

London

- Strengths: recent Super League experience, Full time, owner funding, major city, academy

-Weaknesses: stadium

-USPs: British Capital/South of England coverage, team Toronto replaced

Toulouse

-Strengths: Major city, stadium, finances, reserves

-Weaknesses: unproven crowd/no SL experience

-USPs: French derby, continental expansion, potential for French TV deal

Bradford

-Strengths: major city in RL heartland, previous success, crowd potential, no SL team in the council area, academy

-Weaknesses: finances, not playing in Bradford, stadium

- USPs: major city in RL heartland, only club in the list with proven ability to draw 5 figure crowds

Fev

-Strengths: ok stadium

- Weaknesses: limited growth potential, 2 SL teams already questions over funding/full time status

-USP: team beaten by Toronto in 2019 Championship final

Halifax

-Strengths: ok stadium, no team in council area,

-Weaknesses: financial capacity, limited on field strength, no USP

York

-Strengths: Stadium, no SL team in immediate proximity, coach very well thought of

-Weaknesses: not proven on field with full timers, financial question marks

-USP: Northern city without previous SL representation

Widnes’ USP is having won the WCC, as well as shed loads of other major trophies. They’d also get towards 10k in if doing well in SL. 

[doc]

As a Widnes fan it would be good to be back in super league. But it just ain't worth the cost. Probably not win a game anyway. Rather a full championship season. Win that , and go up legitimately.

Mind you, rules might have changed again by then.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Widnes’ USP is having won the WCC, as well as shed loads of other major trophies. They’d also get towards 10k in if doing well in SL. 

I mean I was sort of aiming for a 20 year scope and "towards 10k" is as good as a few other teams which is not a USP.

[jamescolin]

On 04/11/2020 at 02:27, Oldbear said:

See my post earlier, I think London actually could bring a lot, but not in that stadium. Allowing it in again would make it very difficult to criticize Cas and Wakey for their dumps, whereas both Leigh and Fev would have stadiums which are suitable for the top flight.

A play off between the eight clubs would be the fairest way of selection

[Davo5]

12 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Widnes’ USP is having won the WCC, as well as shed loads of other major trophies. They’d also get towards 10k in if doing well in SL. 

I don’t think they got crowds like that when Offiah,Davies,Koloto,Currier & Myler we’re running riot and winning championships 

[Davo5]

6 minutes ago, jamescolin said:

A play off between the eight clubs would be the fairest way of selection

Yeah that will finish a week before the new season starts,allowing a full 7 days to build a team,good idea

[Spidey]

4 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I don’t think they got crowds like that when Offiah,Davies,Koloto,Currier & Myler we’re running riot and winning championships 

Nope. We’re an 8k max sort of club. With maybe a couple of 10k+ derbies with Saints, Wire & Wigan

[Towzer]

When Toronto emerged they soon took on-board about a team's worth of current and ex Leigh players. Would be fitting for Leigh to take their place.

[Eddie]

32 minutes ago, Davo5 said:

I don’t think they got crowds like that when Offiah,Davies,Koloto,Currier & Myler we’re running riot and winning championships 

They got 6 or 7 k when they were at the bottom of SL a couple of years ago, a successful side would draw bigger crowds than that, 8-9 maybe. 

[Magic XIII]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Lets look at all the prospective clubs USPs (if there is any), Strengths and Weaknesses. I promise I'm trying to do this fairly and impartially. I didn't think to add "ambitious" as clearly all are.

Leigh 

-Strengths: recent Super League experience, financial capacity, stadium, solid supporter base, full time ish?

-Weaknesses: financial collapse in 2018 following relegation/temperamental owner, proximity to other Super League clubs, no USP

Widnes

-Strengths: stadium, recent super league experience, academy?, strong supporter base

-Weaknesses: finances, no USP

London

- Strengths: recent Super League experience, Full time, owner funding, major city, academy

-Weaknesses: stadium

-USPs: British Capital/South of England coverage, team Toronto replaced

Toulouse

-Strengths: Major city, stadium, finances, reserves

-Weaknesses: unproven crowd/no SL experience

-USPs: French derby, continental expansion, potential for French TV deal

Bradford

-Strengths: major city in RL heartland, previous success, crowd potential, no SL team in the council area, academy

-Weaknesses: finances, not playing in Bradford, stadium

- USPs: major city in RL heartland, only club in the list with proven ability to draw 5 figure crowds

Fev

-Strengths: ok stadium

- Weaknesses: limited growth potential, 2 SL teams already questions over funding/full time status

-USP: team beaten by Toronto in 2019 Championship final

Halifax

-Strengths: ok stadium, no team in council area,

-Weaknesses: financial capacity, limited on field strength, no USP

York

-Strengths: Stadium, no SL team in immediate proximity, coach very well thought of

-Weaknesses: not proven on field with full timers, financial question marks

-USP: Northern city without previous SL representation

Brilliant post.

Building on it - hypothetically - if your club was given place 12 and you were exempt from relegation for 5 years, what would your club look like at the end of 5 years ?

 

[Oldbear]

45 minutes ago, jamescolin said:

A play off between the eight clubs would be the fairest way of selection

Totally agree, except I would make it for a place in 2022, giving the winner a decent amount of time to get a squad together, along with any coaching additions that may be necessary. Run 2021 with 11 teams, spend the 12th share on junior development (except we know none of this would happen as it won’t suit the existing 11, firstly they want that 12th share and secondly they don’t want the team coming up to be well prepared, as it may threaten the SL place of a couple of them).

[DI Keith Fowler]

Just now, Eddie said:

They got 6 or 7 k when they were at the bottom of SL a couple of years ago, a successful side would draw bigger crowds than that, 8-9 maybe. 

I think there's a point with Widnes where we just max out. We never really drop below a 4k average even when relegated, but never seem to get past 7k when doing well. It's good in a sense to be fairly steady. 

[Tommygilf]

54 minutes ago, Magic XIII said:

Brilliant post.

Building on it - hypothetically - if your club was given place 12 and you were exempt from relegation for 5 years, what would your club look like at the end of 5 years ?

 

Thats potentially worthy of an additional line in the assessment. Though naturally that would rely on SL to think beyond 12 months

[tms]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Thats potentially worthy of an additional line in the assessment. Though naturally that would rely on SL to think beyond 12 months

HA HA HA 

[Eddie]

43 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said:

I think there's a point with Widnes where we just max out. We never really drop below a 4k average even when relegated, but never seem to get past 7k when doing well. It's good in a sense to be fairly steady. 

Ok fair enough, but still loads better than Wakey for example, and in a much nicer ground. 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Ok fair enough, but still loads better than Wakey for example, and in a much nicer ground. 

I seriously think if going into 2022 and a new era where all teams had to apply for a spot that Salford, Wakefield, Cas and even Hull KR would be in trouble. Purely because similar sized teams like Leigh and Widnes have better facilities

[paul hicks]

just get Elstone and a couple of his mates to do a report and fill it with any rubbish they want to get his favoured team brought in . 

by far the easiest and quick  way to do it.  

im sure he could find at least 7 clubs to do as they were told 

[Lowdesert]

6 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I seriously think if going into 2022 and a new era where all teams had to apply for a spot that Salford, Wakefield, Cas and even Hull KR would be in trouble. Purely because similar sized teams like Leigh and Widnes have better facilities

No chance.  Wakefield and Cas fall into that category and HKR has sections falling into disrepair.    Even despite these, Leigh and/or Widnes offer no more and both have a history with finances, however small compared to TWP, which, given the recent precedent, will go against them heavily.

 

[Eddie]

12 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I seriously think if going into 2022 and a new era where all teams had to apply for a spot that Salford, Wakefield, Cas and even Hull KR would be in trouble. Purely because similar sized teams like Leigh and Widnes have better facilities

It annoys me that some of those teams get to set stringent criteria and only give half the money to the chosen club, when some of them wouldn’t come close if they were applying themselves. Salford have made two finals, Cas get good crowds and so do HKR (and the derby), but Wakey bring very little imho.

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Lowdesert said:

No chance.  Wakefield and Cas fall into that category and HKR has sections falling into disrepair.    Even despite these, Leigh and/or Widnes offer no more and both have a history with finances, however small compared to TWP, which, given the recent precedent, will go against them heavily.

 

I think thats the point though. Remove the comfort blanket of incumbency and their position is much weaker, even compared to York!

[Oldbear]

2 minutes ago, Eddie said:

It annoys me that some of those teams get to set stringent criteria and only give half the money to the chosen club, when some of them wouldn’t come close if they were applying themselves. Salford have made two finals, Cas get good crowds and so do HKR (and the derby), but Wakey bring very little imho.

Very true, this is why clubs making these decisions is wrong. I really don’t want to pick on Wakey, but how come they get to decide when if they had to apply their bid would be significantly worse than some of the applicants who would have to make do with half central funding. Could Wakey even survive with half central funding, yet that is what would be asked of prospective applicants like Leigh, Fev, Toulouse and Widnes, all of whom have superior facilities and appear to be better run. And before Wakey fans jump on me, the same could be said of Cas and HKR