DI Keith Fowler Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 14 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said: These were the rough numbers I did at the time, based on the hoarding price at one SL club and some general internet metrics. It turns out that £2,500 was over-stating my original maths. Pitchside advertising, and outdoor media in general, is cheaper than many people think - largely because it is such a passive and restrictive form of media. You'd probably be suprised how little it cost to advertise in somewhere like Piccadilly Circus, for example - especially now when the cost of media has fallen. So is the £200 per game charged by St Helens fair and accurate? I would say so. RL coverage has a number of issues that keep the price down - it doesn't have huge reach in terms of viewing figures that an advertiser couldn't replicate through other mediums as easily, the audience demographics are a factor and, perhaps an issue that isn't considered as much, is the "dwell time" of the camera on shots where the hoardings are visible. Compare to football, where the camera dwells on a wide shot for a long period, RL TV coverage involves a high volume of close-in shots where the boards can't be seen. What Papa John's pay for their pizzas also doesn't come into it when calculating the value. What matters is what the league / clubs would have to pay for something of equal value. The Super League clubs don't feed their players for the same wholesale cost as a PJ pizza - they're paying the retail cost from whoever the supplier happens to be, so that is the value of the contract. You've obviously put a lot of thought into this so fair play. Just out of interest though why do you say £200 is fair and accurate? I've had a dig about and can't find specifics on this years viewing figures, but last years were averaging 120,000 at one stage, and we're supposedly 16% up on that which would be nearer 140k. Do other sports that get these sorts of figures (I don't think the Gallagher Premiership averages much more than this on BT) charge more or are they in this kind of range? Would any difference be the viewers you're selling i.e. I don't think we'd need to do much research to find out that RU fans have more disposable income than RL fans? I was born to run a club like this. Number 1, I do not spook easily, and those who think I do, are wasting their time, with their surprise attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 21 minutes ago, DI Keith Fowler said: You've obviously put a lot of thought into this so fair play. Just out of interest though why do you say £200 is fair and accurate? I've had a dig about and can't find specifics on this years viewing figures, but last years were averaging 120,000 at one stage, and we're supposedly 16% up on that which would be nearer 140k. Do other sports that get these sorts of figures (I don't think the Gallagher Premiership averages much more than this on BT) charge more or are they in this kind of range? Would any difference be the viewers you're selling i.e. I don't think we'd need to do much research to find out that RU fans have more disposable income than RL fans? I don't have the average viewing figure to hand so can't comment directly. My view is based on similar sports and the general trend for a good number of years has been for the cost of outdoor media to be pushed down - and that includes pitchside sports ads - except for the more premium placements. Rugby Union tends to be more expensive but it's not quite comparing like with like, largely because they tend to promote more of an exclusivity around it. Sponsoring RU tends to come much more as a "bundle deal" with other benefits that the sponsor is paying for. I've only ever worked with one brand that sponsored RU and what they ended up with was a lot more that you'd perhaps think for what was a relatively low-level deal. It's also worth pointing out that brand was, like Papa Johns, paying for the deal through product and not cash. Again, the comparison to make is not to compare with other sports, but to compare with other forms of media. If I were to want to try and reach 150,000 C2DEs in the north of England, I could do that through digital media anywhere between £6 and £50 per thousand, depending on what I wanted to do. In doing so, I could do it with far more granular levels of targeting, I'd get much more than just a flash on a pitchside board and I could provide evidence of a return on investment much more easily. That's what RL is competing with and that is what I mean when I say that the sport needs to offer more value to prospective partners. It's not about what RL can offer that football or rugby union doesn't, but about what RL can offer that Google, YouTube and Facebook can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 6 hours ago, DI Keith Fowler said: Playing devils advocate, not being my area of expertise (as if I had one), would the answer not be that PE managing the game would look to increase commercial revenues to make their money back? The game doesn't really have any assets, it's just the players and the clubs which are all transient. I don't see what assets their are to strip. I do see a potential for running things better than they are right now which is to the level of a failing working mens club. SL have been running their side of the game for over 2 years, clearly without competence to the game as a whole. That is down and now they appear be selling it And when I posted the other year that you could buy the whole game for 60 million people laughed me off the forum e Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 8 hours ago, DimmestStar said: Elstone works for the Super League clubs was appointed by them and can only be removed by them. It's entirely a matter for the clubs if they want to keep paying for his services. He isn't working for anyone else and isn't paid by anyone else. They've just voted 9-2 to keep him so I guess that's the end of the matter. When the 2 most successful clubs on and off the field in the Super League era want him gone what can they see that other clubs can't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 And the two are ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 7 minutes ago, del capo said: And the two are ? Saints and Leeds. I'm surprised you didn't know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 1 minute ago, The Future is League said: Saints and Leeds. I'm surprised you didn't know that I really didn't So a hard nosed business man who has loved and played the game from top to bottom together with a Pacific rim financier once described as amongst the top 50 worldwide did not like the future, Looks like to me the owners are giving Elstone the green light to selling off the game to cut their losses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 17 minutes ago, del capo said: I really didn't So a hard nosed business man who has loved and played the game from top to bottom together with a Pacific rim financier once described as amongst the top 50 worldwide did not like the future, Looks like to me the owners are giving Elstone the green light to selling off the game to cut their losses Losses being the key word. Perhaps the other 9 clubs need to follow the Leeds and Saints blueprint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
del capo Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Future is League said: Losses being the key word. Perhaps the other 9 clubs need to follow the Leeds and Saints blueprint I think they are more likely to go for Elstone's PE package., That way they get some of their money back. So far he has cost in excess of 1.5 million. A nice package for someone Same figure to what SL asked for from the RFL a short while ago to continue their very existence As a bail out under the Government grant schemes. Leneghan already sold at least 25% of Wigan to a billionaire, and he is Elstones champion. Brave new world with sunny uplands promised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 So can we discuss the fact that according to League Express two of the big four were so outraged by the way Elstone behaved over Toronto that they voted to remove him from his position? Hetherington was never sold on him, or the SL split but to lose one of his biggest boosters in McManus means he must now be on very thin ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DOGFATHER Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 On 09/11/2020 at 20:20, M j M said: So can we discuss the fact that according to League Express two of the big four were so outraged by the way Elstone behaved over Toronto that they voted to remove him from his position? Hetherington was never sold on him, or the SL split but to lose one of his biggest boosters in McManus means he must now be on very thin ice. Personally, I found his appointment a little strange at the time, he was appointed to be the head honcho of SL, but with no real power. Yet he is paid like a CEO. The clubs themselves decide what happens, so he is just like Rimmer, a well paid fall guy, with no real power to really do, or change anything. Elstone and Rimmer seem to be a pretty thin smokescreen for the small minded, self interested chairman to hide behind, allowing them to point the finger of blame, when all in the garden is less than rosy. If the SL clubs were not going to relinquish any of the power to run the game. Why not stick with Rimmer? Better still, why not employ a sales professional, or even a sales company, to thrash out a deal, weighted towards a large commission for closing a bigger tv deal than the current one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 9 hours ago, DOGFATHER said: Personally, I found his appointment a little strange at the time, he was appointed to be the head honcho of SL, a position with no real power. Yet he is paid like a CEO. The clubs themselves decide what happens, so he is just like Rimmer, a well paid fall guy, with no real power to do, or change anything. Elstone and Rimmer seem to be a pretty thin smokescreen for the small minded, self interested chairman to hide behind, allowing them to point the finger of blame, when all in the garden is less than rosy. If the SL clubs were not going to relinquish any of the power, to let him make a decision or run the game. Why not stick with Rimmer? Better still, why not employ a sales professional, or even a sales company, to thrash out a deal, weighted towards a large commission for closing a tv deal bigger than the current one? I was for the appointment of Elstone and what was promised at the time as I thought that it would propel Super League forward and would see it grow. I have given Elstone more time than most and think there was some improvements pre Covid with the new TV productions etc. However I was wrong for all the reason you cite. I've said on here. in recent weeks, that we don't need to be paying a SLE chief a fortune to just rule by consensus and placate clubs to stay in power. That is a complete waste of money but yet that is all we are getting and is no better than what we had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Damien said: I was for the appointment of Elstone and what was promised at the time as I thought that it would propel Super League forward and would see it grow. I have given Elstone more time than most and think there was some improvements pre Covid with the new TV productions etc. However I was wrong for all the reason you cite. I've said on here. in recent weeks, that we don't need to be paying a SLE chief a fortune to just rule by consensus and placate clubs to stay in power. That is a complete waste of money but yet that is all we are getting and is no better than what we had before. What i fine surprising it that Cas and Wakey voted for him and they don't meet his prescript. Turkeys voting for Christmas in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 14 hours ago, del capo said: I think they are more likely to go for Elstone's PE package., That way they get some of their money back. So far he has cost in excess of 1.5 million. A nice package for someone Same figure to what SL asked for from the RFL a short while ago to continue their very existence As a bail out under the Government grant schemes. Leneghan already sold at least 25% of Wigan to a billionaire, and he is Elstones champion. Brave new world with sunny uplands promised Short term gain. long term pain coming up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M j M Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 I would say it is a sign of how absolutely fuming Hetherington and McManus must be that they'd act to remove Elstone in the middle of the tv negotiations with the signals that note would send to external parties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 14 hours ago, del capo said: I think they are more likely to go for Elstone's PE package., That way they get some of their money back. So far he has cost in excess of 1.5 million. A nice package for someone Same figure to what SL asked for from the RFL a short while ago to continue their very existence As a bail out under the Government grant schemes. Leneghan already sold at least 25% of Wigan to a billionaire, and he is Elstones champion. Brave new world with sunny uplands promised Rumour mill saying that Lenegan is losing his interest in Wigan RLFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 50 minutes ago, The Future is League said: What i fine surprising it that Cas and Wakey voted for him and they don't meet his prescript. Turkeys voting for Christmas in my opinion You really are most desperate for Cas and Wakey to be relegated aren't you?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 54 minutes ago, The Future is League said: Rumour mill saying that Lenegan is losing his interest in Wigan RLFC. I've heard the opposite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLANTISMAN Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, JohnM said: I've heard the opposite. Dont see that at all Ian loves Wigan:) P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said: Dont see that at all Ian loves Wigan:) P For clarification. I've heard that Lenagan is NOT losing interest in the Warriors and indeed has plans to invest even more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 2 hours ago, The Future is League said: Short term gain. long term pain coming up Ah, C'est la Vie! T'was ever thus at Chapeltown, Red Hall and now Elstone's fawlty towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FearTheVee Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 5 hours ago, JohnM said: For clarification. I've heard that Lenagan is NOT losing interest in the Warriors and indeed has plans to invest even more. Given he's covering the losses I hope he plans to invest more as he doesn't really have a choice about that particularly investment strategy. Here's hoping he has something up his sleeve as Wigan's busienss model simply doesn't appear to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul hicks Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 6 hours ago, M j M said: I would say it is a sign of how absolutely fuming Hetherington and McManus must be that they'd act to remove Elstone in the middle of the tv negotiations with the signals that note would send to external parties. as long as those two hold there nerve then there will be no PE agreement as it has to be unanimous between the clubs . it could of course be quite interesting to see which owners would bail out of the agreement is not passed . i suspect there could be a couple of them bailing out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 46 minutes ago, FearTheVee said: Given he's covering the losses I hope he plans to invest more as he doesn't really have a choice about that particularly investment strategy. Here's hoping he has something up his sleeve as Wigan's busienss model simply doesn't appear to work. For the right consideration, I am prepared to reveal my source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted November 10, 2020 Share Posted November 10, 2020 6 hours ago, JohnM said: I've heard the opposite. Selling some of his stake in the club suggests otherwise Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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