What Do French Clubs Offer SL - an objective assessment

[Toby Chopra]

57 minutes ago, Mr Plow said:

What can Toulouse offer to SL that Wakefield and Cas cannot?

There was a time when it was questioned what Argentina can offer to rugby Union. They’ve just beaten the all blacks wearing a Nike kit and sponsored by visa

 

 

52 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In Argentina union has been played since the 1890's it is not as though it was originated a few years ago from nothing, and it has pushed on and organised better and grown, will RL in France take a similar path?

Thing is though, Argentina didn't do it on their own.

The southern hemisphere nations in particular have invested huge amounts of time, money and effort in helping Argentine to achieve this, particularly incurring the costs and travel time to include them in the 4 nations and super rugby. Australia and New Zealand will now reap the financial rewards of that commitment they have shown. 

It shouldn't just be up to the French rugby league to sort themselves out, it's strongly in our interests to do everything we possibly can to help them. 

Of course, we can't just do it blindly, money is tight in rugby league and it's right that we assess every step we take to see if it's sustainable. Which is why I didn't pillory the Toronto decision as others did.

But the principle of being an active partner to the French rugby league rather than asking them to bear the burden alone is clear to me. 

[rlfan2020]

3 hours ago, Rarefrith said:

How many French players did Catalans have in the 17 last night? 3 or 4? Their lack of French players has gradually gotten worst over the last 14 years, the French national team also remain awful. They are a good club but don’t do a great deal for French rugby league or at least not as much as they should be doing by now. 

Well said

[Tommygilf]

Absolute banter can't wait for the same posters praising this "objective view" to be deriding Super League when they pick the 12th place side that isn't theirs 

[rlfan2020]

2 hours ago, Scubby said:

Harry, if I had to guess it is because they want the rewards but won't put in the work. Look at how the AFL has expanded with teams in Sydney and Queensland. Disproportionate investment in those expansion clubs to create a wider stronger geographical spread. The AFL now has the biggest TV deal in Australian sport. 30 years ago it was just played in Perth, SA and Victoria.

We don't want to put in the work. We have clubs living hand to mouth not giving a #### about 5-10 years ahead.

Great post. There house needs to stand on good Foundations. Each side should have a 17s and a 19s. And a reserves side. Whilst also supporting community game say 4-5 clubs in their area so producing a talent pathway of players to pull from and also build further fanbase from.

[Damien]

19 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Does the SL see it that way Damien, I will ask you then why the reference to FRANCE and financial implications mentioned in the Toronto report?

I am sure if everything was as simple and straightforward as you paint it then it will be a no brainer for the inclusion of Toulouse and this selection process is just a sham and a waste of time and money, surely the hard nosed businessmen who populate the Chairs at the SL clubs would have been insisting on Toulouse being the additional 12th club and not taking it to chance.

Harry that report wouldn't even pass a University assignment. It's flawed beyond belief to suit an agenda and if a student handed that in they would fail. Nearly every point you can ask so what and why is this noteworthy, as you would in a masters, and find it lacking. Its real leaping to conclusions and 2 + 2 equals 5 stuff. If I did a similar report in my employment my boss would ask me to do it again with evidence and critical analysis.

The purpose of the report is also quite different than the topic of this thread and any reference to France should be treated as such. France is only mentioned as the authors deemed it as a stick to beat Toronto with. A completely different market, culture and language but lets make a flawed comparison because we can paint Toronto in a bad light.

Also as for sponsorship, Dacia have been involved in sponsoring Super League and are a partner. They are also a subsidiary of Renault, who are a huge French company. Its odd the authors chose to omit this but as I said the agenda is obvious.

[Tommygilf]

12 minutes ago, rlfan2020 said:

Great post. There house needs to stand on good Foundations. Each side should have a 17s and a 19s. And a reserves side. Whilst also supporting community game say 4-5 clubs in their area so producing a talent pathway of players to pull from and also build further fanbase from.

In France the do have that, in England they don't all

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 hour ago, Scubby said:

This. People need to think about what could become not what is. Twenty years ago Catalans were two small time semi pro teams watched by a couple of hundred folk. By the end of this year they may have achieved both the Challenge Cup and SL GF. Let's help them become even bigger by giving them a rival, a derby and a fighting chance to grow themselves. It is not difficult.

There were 3 clubs who applied but the only 2 that were in the frame were X111 Catalan/St Esteve  (UTC)  and Toulouse the RFL came down to watch ALL 3 clubs matches and they were impressed with what they saw in Perpignan (Basically the club dragged out a few drummers and trumpet players for a match and created a fantastic atmosphere the day the RFL came)

The original idea was to call the club PERPIGNAN ST ESTEVE MEDITERRANEAN ( I kid you not:) however a couple of us persuaded the club that Catalan Dragons was a better name and with the support of Grant Meyer (First CEO) the club was born.The original Dragons logo was changed after a couple of seasons when the person that designed it (From Paris) had a falling out with the club (Who later went on to become the PR man for the awful Marie Le Pen but thats another story) Grant was replaced by Tas Batteri stepson (Step brother of the current Catalan Batteri) Nicolas Rayer as CEO, Nicolas as did Grant in the early days really reported to the RFL and after a few months fell out with the way the club was run (To be honest everyone was doing their best however the club was running way above its means) mainly due to the excessive amount of wages being paid to Australian players (One agent used to tie the club up in knots) Anyway to cut a long story short Nicolas resigned and gradually things became better and Bernard did a fantastic job attracting new sponsors helped by the maire who leased one end of the ground to a swimming pool and events company from Lyon with the fee going to the Dragons (Over here the ratepayers would have been up in arms however in France well:)) that along with the French taxman wiping off the PAYE to many rugby/football clubs in France around 2009 (Many who were on their knees) helped stabilise the club and the rest is history.

Toulouse will (If admitted) have a far better structure initially than the Dragons and look what they have achieved.

 

P 

[Mattrhino]

I don't get that report. What has it to do with Catalan if Super League can't negotiate a substantial TV deal. Although they have brought in 290,000 euros of TV money over 5 years going by the reports figures. This of course doesn't include the cost of the production team and hardware of 100+ live SL games that would have not been otherwise shown.

I'd like to know what other one English club is directly responsible for 290k of funding. Infact I would love to know what any sponsor gave SL anywhere near the 290k they received from French TV. I think it is a very small list. This is of course the home of the great negotiators of the paid in pizza deal.

[meast]

10 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I imagine this will upset a few people, but given the current situation it’s worth assessing the long term value of French inclusion in SL.

Catalans in their own right a success according to the report, which I think everyone agrees with. However, it’s clear that SL is subsidizing SL for Catalans rather than the other way around. Despite the fanfare they offer nothing other than a pin in the map and a good away trip.

Given Toulouse is a much weaker club, why are we even entertaining them as an option? The fantasy needs to end, everyone from families to business are focusing on their strengths. French teams is English leagues is not a strength.

Have you been to Perpignan?

Or indeed the rugby league area of French Catalonia?

If you have then you'll be aware of the passion, pride and love for the game and all the local village clubs and their players who all follow and aspire to play for Les Dragons.

There is more rugby league culture in that region than in most regions of the North of England, so ask this, what do any of the clubs in the North of England offer that Catalans don't?

[Phil]

2 hours ago, Saint 1 said:

 

Sounds like a good idea to make them exempt from relegation if the development of the national team is their responsibility?

 

Yes absolutely agree 

[PEANUT HEAD]

8 hours ago, M j M said:

This misses the point entirely. What do Catalans Dragons bring to Super League? A fair bit.

What do Catalans Dragons bring to French Rugby League? Almost everything.

It's utterly wrong to assess foreign clubs for what they bring to the competition and ignore what they bring to the strength and future of the games in their home countries.

It is wrong to assess them but you want to assess what the incoming team can bring.

[PEANUT HEAD]

8 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Ahhh partisan supporters and competitive fixtures. How’s that for a start?

But no away support. 

[Phil]

5 minutes ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

But no away support. 

Not again, please 

[PEANUT HEAD]

1 minute ago, Phil said:

Not again, please 

So it needs to be answered and don't give me that every away game is a flight away, fans don't need to go to every away game they don't go to any, I was at Wembley when they played saints there following was abysmal, yet SL teams take on average say about a 1000 fans to cats.

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

So it needs to be answered and don't give me that every away game is a flight away, fans don't need to go to every away game they don't go to any, I was at Wembley when they played saints there following was abysmal, yet SL teams take on average say about a 1000 fans to cats.

Rubbish. I was at Wembley that year surrounded by Catalans fans and was amazed how many had made the trek. It was also the 2nd highest attendance we have had at the new Wembley.

[PEANUT HEAD]

Just now, Damien said:

Rubbish. I was at Wembley that year surrounded by Catalans fans and was amazed how many had made the trek. It was also the 2nd highest attendance we have had at the new Wembley.

Yes full of saints fans and other clubs, I was surrounded by cats fans as well  but there couldn't of been more than 5000 which is abysmal saying it was probably the biggest day in the club's history. 

[Niels]

1 minute ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Yes full of saints fans and other clubs, I was surrounded by cats fans as well  but there couldn't of been more than 5000 which is abysmal saying it was probably the biggest day in the club's history. 

The away support is a major factor.

If Catalans or Toulouse do obtain an away following it would suddenly be a real positive. 

 

[ATLANTISMAN]

10 minutes ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Yes full of saints fans and other clubs, I was surrounded by cats fans as well  but there couldn't of been more than 5000 which is abysmal saying it was probably the biggest day in the club's history. 

The reality was.

Only 2 flights a day then from Perpignan (And one was on BMI Baby to Manchester thank god for them as there was a deal for free travel for the players in year 1)

2 from Girona to Stansted

Barcelona/Carcassonne 

If the Dragons fans took up 100% of the available flights 2/3 days before and after the match they would have maybe reached 5000 LOL:)

* Salaries in the region then around 1200 euros a month (It was 1/50 to the £1 then)

* Short notice and right in the middle of the holiday season 

P 

 

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

12 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I imagine this will upset a few people, but given the current situation it’s worth assessing the long term value of French inclusion in SL.

Catalans in their own right a success according to the report, which I think everyone agrees with. However, it’s clear that SL is subsidizing SL for Catalans rather than the other way around. Despite the fanfare they offer nothing other than a pin in the map and a good away trip.

Given Toulouse is a much weaker club, why are we even entertaining them as an option? The fantasy needs to end, everyone from families to business are focusing on their strengths. French teams is English leagues is not a strength.

I was attracted to your thread, TET, not least of all by the title you gave it.

Who is to provide the 'objective assessment' you mention and when can we hope to see it?

[Scubby]

10 minutes ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Yes full of saints fans and other clubs, I was surrounded by cats fans as well  but there couldn't of been more than 5000 which is abysmal saying it was probably the biggest day in the club's history. 

How can you even use this as an argument? Catalans took 20k fans to the Nou Camp stadium (2 hours away) which is probably a more relatable road trip to those English clubs going to London.  

[PEANUT HEAD]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

How can you even use this as an argument? Catalans took 20k fans to the Nou Camp stadium (2 hours away) which is probably a more relatable road trip to those English clubs going to London.  

Yet they can't bring any fans to a Sl ground, SL doesn't need another weekend away trip and if I was cats I wouldn't want it either cause people  will pick which trip they want to do cats or Toulouse.

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, Scubby said:

How can you even use this as an argument? Catalans took 20k fans to the Nou Camp stadium (2 hours away) which is probably a more relatable road trip to those English clubs going to London.  

Its the small time mentality.

[Scubby]

5 minutes ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Yet they can't bring any fans to a Sl ground.

2020 has shown us that the away fan myth is built on straw. Clubs need to let it go and start building up their own businesses.

The future of sport is less and less people travelling to their club's away games. The decline has been in place for a number of years.

[barnyia]

They will if toulouse get into super league

[PEANUT HEAD]

1 minute ago, Scubby said:

2020 has shown us that the away fan myth is built on straw. Clubs need to let it go and start building up their own businesses.

The future of sport is less and less people travelling to their club's away games. The decline has been in place for a number of years.

I would rather have a 1000 away fans than none, for income and atmosphere.