Ball - in - hand.

[FearNothing]

Interesting thread..... I used to play american football, so just thought I'd chip in some info about the NFL/CFL ball that might be of interest/relevant to the discussion. Not only are they more pointed than rugby balls, but they have laces on them, proud of the surface. The QB holds the laces with 3 fingers (little, ring and middle), with the index finger between the end of the lace run and the point of the ball, with the thumb around the ball to the opposite side. This grip allows the throwing of passes, as the grip allows the ball to be spun as part of the passing action - you can't do that with any accuracy or distance with a rugby ball, but any half-decent QB can launch a pass easily for 50+ yards flight.

Also, the pointed shape is important when running the ball, as the runner will typically hold the ball along the inner of the forearm, with one point jammed in tight just above the elbow, and the other point in the palm of the hand, with the fingers and thumb enveloping the point. As backwards offloads/lateral passes, whilst legal, are very very rarely used in gridiron, the emphasis on the ball carrier is not to give up possession, and so that method of carrying the ball is pretty secure against the majority of tackle/strip attempts. If you watch a running back in flight, he'll usually be carrying in one arm as above, but when a tackle is imminent they'll often wrap the ball against the body with both arms, one under and one over the ball in order not to fumble. Whilst that would work in rugby, as there's more emphasis on possible offloads, the technique is less suited to that game....horses for courses.   

[The Rocket]

13 minutes ago, FearNothing said:

but when a tackle is imminent they'll often wrap the ball against the body with both arms, one under and one over the ball in order not to fumble. Whilst that would work in rugby, as there's more emphasis on possible offloads, the technique is less suited to that game....horses for courses.   

Thanks for the input, it`s funny you say that, I`ve said before that players who are notorious `droppers` of the ball, for example Tom Burgess, who rarely passes any way but can be a very damaging ball runner, if he has no intention of offloading why isn`t he coached to carry the ball like a gridiron player, but no, he continues to tuck it under one arm and he continues to drop it.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, FearNothing said:

 As backwards offloads/lateral passes, whilst legal, are very very rarely used in gridiron, the emphasis on the ball carrier is not to give up possession, and so that method of carrying the ball is pretty secure against the majority of tackle/strip attempts.   

As I understand it, the rule in gridiron is one forward pass per play. To me it`s surprising all their coaches concentrate exclusively on blocking. There have to be moments when after the quarterback`s forward pass the receiver could easily execute a lateral/backwards pass.

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Thanks for the input, it`s funny you say that, I`ve said before that players who are notorious `droppers` of the ball, for example Tom Burgess, who rarely passes any way but can be a very damaging ball runner, if he has no intention of offloading why isn`t he coached to carry the ball like a gridiron player, but no, he continues to tuck it under one arm and he continues to drop it.

There were periods in the last WC final when we had the prayer mat out every time Tom carried the ball up. The worst case of dropsy I`ve ever seen.

[The Rocket]

3 hours ago, FearNothing said:

Interesting thread..... I used to play american football, so just thought I'd chip in some info about the NFL/CFL ball that might be of interest/relevant to the discussion. Not only are they more pointed than rugby balls, but they have laces on them, proud of the surface. The QB holds the laces with 3 fingers (little, ring and middle), with the index finger between the end of the lace run and the point of the ball, with the thumb around the ball to the opposite side. This grip allows the throwing of passes, as the grip allows the ball to be spun as part of the passing action - you can't do that with any accuracy or distance with a rugby ball, but any half-decent QB can launch a pass easily for 50+ yards flight.

Also, the pointed shape is important when running the ball, as the runner will typically hold the ball along the inner of the forearm, with one point jammed in tight just above the elbow, and the other point in the palm of the hand, with the fingers and thumb enveloping the point. As backwards offloads/lateral passes, whilst legal, are very very rarely used in gridiron, the emphasis on the ball carrier is not to give up possession, and so that method of carrying the ball is pretty secure against the majority of tackle/strip attempts. If you watch a running back in flight, he'll usually be carrying in one arm as above, but when a tackle is imminent they'll often wrap the ball against the body with both arms, one under and one over the ball in order not to fumble. Whilst that would work in rugby, as there's more emphasis on possible offloads, the technique is less suited to that game....horses for courses.   

I`ve had a little more time to think about your post and have thought of a couple of other questions if you don`t mind.

Do any players run holding the ball like Josh Schuster does in the video I posted yesterday at 7.34, that`s if you don`t mind having a look, you will see the particular grip I am talking about in the last couple of action shots.

Is it true the NFL were having problems with a lot of `rush` plays, I think that`s the right term, and changed the rules to encourage more passing. I tried to look it up before I started this thread but couldn`t find any thing specific but the fact that I didn`t understand the jargon didn`t help. One thing I did note was that there were more rule changes in the 2000`s than all other decades put together. In fact in the 80`s there was only two rule changes in the whole decade.

Given that there is not a massive difference in ball dimensions between NFL and RL it`s amazing that small difference can have such a difference on the ability to throw it so far and so accurately. Has the ball size ever been adjusted in NFL.

And last but not least, mate a couple of general questions, what do think of Rugby League, how do you find it in comparison to rugby union and do you think that if goals in Nfl were taken in line with where the touchdown was scored that would be more exciting. Thanks for your time. Regards Rocket.

 

 

[TheReaper]

21 hours ago, The Rocket said:

if goals in Nfl were taken in line with where the touchdown was scored that would be more exciting

One thing that would prevent this is that all plays have to start between the hash marks, and those are pretty narrows on the NFL field.

[FearNothing]

@The Rocket  @unapologetic pedant when I have more time, I'll pop an answer to your other q's

[FearNothing]

On 19/11/2020 at 00:58, unapologetic pedant said:

As I understand it, the rule in gridiron is one forward pass per play. To me it`s surprising all their coaches concentrate exclusively on blocking. There have to be moments when after the quarterback`s forward pass the receiver could easily execute a lateral/backwards pass.

However, what you're not taking into account is that the receiver is usually the only offensive player in the vicinity of where the pass is thrown, unless you're looking at a screen pass where it's set up with blockers out front (but, to be technical, who can't progress past the line of scrimmage until AFTER the pass has been thrown). As for blocking, all 5 offensive linemen that is their sole job, with others chipping in depending on the play (like the fullback lead blocking for the running back)....blocking is a vital part of the game, unlike RL where if you tried that it'd be penalty after penalty as blocking isn't permitted.... think of it as different forms of teamwork in the two sports - in RL, the teamwork is the passing between players to advance, in gridiron the teamwork is in the blocking assignments to allow the passer/ball carrier/receiver to do their jobs

[FearNothing]

6 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

That type of carry wouldn't work with a rugby ball. It's too big. They want 10 points of contact with their centre chest instead. That's also a much more advantageous position to play the ball from too.

exactly...and too rounded at the ends. I suppose some big blokes could carry a rugby ball in that fashion, but it would'd be as secure a carry as in AF.

[FearNothing]

On 19/11/2020 at 01:09, The Rocket said:

I`ve had a little more time to think about your post and have thought of a couple of other questions if you don`t mind.

Do any players run holding the ball like Josh Schuster does in the video I posted yesterday at 7.34, that`s if you don`t mind having a look, you will see the particular grip I am talking about in the last couple of action shots.

Is it true the NFL were having problems with a lot of `rush` plays, I think that`s the right term, and changed the rules to encourage more passing. I tried to look it up before I started this thread but couldn`t find any thing specific but the fact that I didn`t understand the jargon didn`t help. One thing I did note was that there were more rule changes in the 2000`s than all other decades put together. In fact in the 80`s there was only two rule changes in the whole decade.

Given that there is not a massive difference in ball dimensions between NFL and RL it`s amazing that small difference can have such a difference on the ability to throw it so far and so accurately. Has the ball size ever been adjusted in NFL.

And last but not least, mate a couple of general questions, what do think of Rugby League, how do you find it in comparison to rugby union and do you think that if goals in Nfl were taken in line with where the touchdown was scored that would be more exciting. Thanks for your time. Regards Rocket.

 

 

1. some may carry it similarly on occasion, but in more of a transitional way, i.e. before swapping arms.

2. No problem with rushing (running) plays, but some rules like Pass Interference were jigged and tweaked a bit which gave pass defenders less of the upper hand over receivers, so it was more of a natural evolution to a more passing game (and depended on your QB too!!).

3. Whilst the ball dimensions don't sound much, try holding one in each hand and the differences are much more obvious (and no I'm not telling you to hold your balls, especially in public  ).

4. RL is great, brought up watching it Saturday TV with my dad, with the odd trip to Widnes in the 80's when they were top in UK. RU by comparison is boring. The fact that AF kickers are under pressure from the snap, hold, and defending team in a way makes up for the fact that they are kicking from a restricted angle - there was a scottish RU international goal-kicker a few years back went to try his hand at AF placekicking, didn't do so well.... 

[FearNothing]

8 minutes ago, Saint 1 said:

It's not even as secure as a standard rugby carry. Your arm is in a vulnerable position so it's harder to secure the ball and defenders have got an easy lever to put you on your back too.

agreed....and that's also partly down to the difference in tackle techniques between the two sports, and there's no wrestle in the tackle in AF as there is in rugby, as once the tackle is complete the ball is dead so no need for the wrestle (probably could have put that better, but if you know AF you know what I'm getting at, no pressure to get up and ptb quickly, etc )

[The Rocket]

 

On 21/11/2020 at 08:05, FearNothing said:

1. some may carry it similarly on occasion, but in more of a transitional way, i.e. before swapping arms.

2. No problem with rushing (running) plays, but some rules like Pass Interference were jigged and tweaked a bit which gave pass defenders less of the upper hand over receivers, so it was more of a natural evolution to a more passing game (and depended on your QB too!!).

3. Whilst the ball dimensions don't sound much, try holding one in each hand and the differences are much more obvious (and no I'm not telling you to hold your balls, especially in public  ).

4. RL is great, brought up watching it Saturday TV with my dad, with the odd trip to Widnes in the 80's when they were top in UK. RU by comparison is boring. The fact that AF kickers are under pressure from the snap, hold, and defending team in a way makes up for the fact that they are kicking from a restricted angle - there was a scottish RU international goal-kicker a few years back went to try his hand at AF placekicking, didn't do so well.... 

Thanks for the response, cleared a few things up for me, I recognize the way you describe the ball carry, it still allows a fair bit of arm movement to generate speed. 

In your second response:

On 21/11/2020 at 08:05, FearNothing said:

some rules like Pass Interference were jigged and tweaked a bit which gave pass defenders less of the upper hand over receivers, so it was more of a natural evolution to a more passing game (and depended on your QB too!!).

There may be something in there that League can think about in order to achieve the same outcome of encouraging passing. Interestingly in union I believe it is illegal to play at the ball in flight. i.e. knock passes down. Your observation about ` depending on the QB ` probably reflects the same issue we have, players have to want to pass.

One last thing, I have seen instances in NFL archival footage of teams actually stringing 2, 3 and 4 passes together , League style, but obviously a rarity.

[TheReaper]

8 hours ago, The Rocket said:

One last thing, I have seen instances in NFL archival footage of teams actually stringing 2, 3 and 4 passes together , League style, but obviously a rarity

That's generally at the very end of a game, when there is no time for them to get another play. It then becomes a game of "keep the ball alive" , when rugby tactics would be ideal, but you can don't practice it much.

[unapologetic pedant]

On 14/11/2020 at 11:17, The Rocket said:

Offloads and second phase play are one of the guaranteed ways of opening up rigid defences and leading to less structured attacking play. Joey Manu, SBW and Ali Lauitiiti were among its greatest exponents. 

 

You obliquely mentioned this thread in a point about ball movement on the Tag thread, so I`m resurrecting it rather than go off-topic over there.

Looking again at the pictures Saint 1 posted. The top two are of players in contact. Assuming this is not significant, i.e. that all the pictures reflect how each of the four players habitually carries the ball in or out of contact, it would seem that the thumb position of the bottom two indicate the attitude of a natural offloader, the thumb position of the top two that of a take-the-tackle hard yakka merchant. Which underlines the argument that the confident mindset of the ball-carrier going into contact, whether instinctive or coached, is the key to an offloading game.

I have no quarrel with how teams currently use the ball in opposition territory. Quite the reverse. The slick, intricate, split-second catch and pass moves are superb, even mesmerizing at times. Likewise the centre`s flick-pass offload. (You`ve cited Joey Manu, I`d match that with Peta Hiku on a good day ). All this is some of the best play ever witnessed in RL.

I don`t think one-handed offloads are the problem. We see plenty of those in good field position, when teams are taking risks to try and score. What`s missing is forwards offloading in their own half, keeping moves alive to create space and gain territory. These can be two-handed offloads where the ball-carrier hits and spins or isolates defenders to win the contact and get both hands free. The ball is better protected, it`s a safer execution. The main reason we don`t see more of them is that cheap metres are available through dull, one-dimensional play. More true now with set restarts.