Arresting the decline at Wigan

[Whippet13]

5 hours ago, M j M said:

That's where I disagree. They've seen the problem but misunderstood it.

From what I can tell they have allowed themselves to stop being central to the town of Wigan, to stop being part of the Wigan identity. Crowds have declined for myriad reasons no doubt but I feel the new logo is addressing what they perceive as a different problem.

Sport-wide branding is one thing but for a club like Wigan, what they represent and the values and history of the club are important. I think they have been sold a sales pitch by a PR agency which doesn't get at that.

The club's direct market is Wigan and it is in Wigan that the decline in crowds has come from. To address that I feel they should have doubled down on their Wigan-ness rather than try to dilute it. The brand is only a small part of the solution but if it is an indicator of where they are going as part of a wider strategy I feel they may be on the wrong track.

What they are trying to do is reinforce the Wigan-ness plus also appeal to a younger/wider market.

Generally, older people don't like change whilst youngsters take it in their stride. I bet there was outrage from older fans 50 years ago when Wigan stuck the made-up "historic" crest on the shirt for the first time.

Kids like to be different from their parents that's why we have fashion changes and new music trends. Wigan are trying to tap into to this. Ok, the badge isn' t the best, but the logic of what they are trying to do is right.

 

[fighting irish]

24 minutes ago, Cerulean said:

Okay. Again, I'll say that my valuation of modern players is worth very little. I put forward the name of a player who I admire as an example of the reluctance of RL fans to praise - amongst themselves, or to others outside the game - players of clubs other than their own, a point I was putting forward.

With the removal of a few of my posts, the thread (our part of it) has lost its context.

Others looking on will now think it makes little sense.

Anyway my friend, at least we know what it was all about. Thank you for your contributions to a serious point.

It just so happens that our own fans won't let us call our best players ''great''. Just one more thing holding the game back. Great huh?

I hope you don't mind me adding, that in my opinion, your valuation of modern players is worth at least as much as anyone else in here.

Also, you possess the inestimable quality (and a huge advantage in any argument) of presenting your opinions like a true gentleman.

[fighting irish]

How's that John?

[AB90]

3 hours ago, Celt said:

That's an interesting one. What is it about him that makes you say he is 'world class'? 

He has played about 12 international games in his entire career, and all the other games he has played are in Super League. Given that a serious chunk of these games are against the likes of Wakefield, Huddersfield, Hull KR and London Broncos, can we really classify what he does as 'world class'? 

Or is that just the level the game is at now, where the ability to run round pretty incompetent mediocre opposition, whilst getting battered in the few games you play against genuine international class opposition is enough to be called 'world class'? His last international game saw his team literally hammered by Papua New Guinea... He was the starting fullback.

I know it is only your opinion... but it seems to really cheapen the concept of being called world class.

 

 

I find the term 'world class' to be a bit silly and outdated as it's so subjective. Literally everyone will have a different opinion as to what constitutes being world class.

Is it not easier to say something like 'hes top 5 in the world at his position' so we actually have a hard, objective measuring stick. 

Just thinking out loud lol

[Cerulean]

3 hours ago, fighting irish said:

....gentleman.

Thank you. Please continue to display your enthusiasm for the sport you so deeply believe in.

[Father Ted]

Perhaps "World Class" should mean that the named player would get into the best thirteen players playing Rugby League anywhere in the world.

As for Wigan arresting the decline, that's for another day from me.  

[fighting irish]

56 minutes ago, Father Ted said:

Perhaps "World Class" should mean that the named player would get into the best thirteen players playing Rugby League anywhere in the world.

As for Wigan arresting the decline, that's for another day from me.  

That won't do Father now will it? Who could they play against, if there's only 13 of them? Oh and what if they did play and they lost? 

[Chris Taylor]

I'd be interested to understand what the difference of the attendances are between week day fixtures (thurs & friday) to sat & sun.

I'm sure I read a few years ago, that Leeds love the Friday night games, because of the increase in commercial revenue in the commercial area. It did mean they would get less fans through the gate.

I remember years ago, speaking to a Saints fan pre challenge cup match who noticed my Featherstone shirt and ask why bother supporting them, but he then went on to say they only go to the finals because they always get there. Take the attitude away and be to the point - is that the case with Wigan & Saints fans?

In my opinion the game is less attractive now than it once was late 90's early 00's - there's been too much structure change, but also the game feels very robotic. Compare the Grand Final that's coming on Friday to the Grand FInal in 2003 - it;s a completley different game. Less risk Vs High Risk.

When the 2013 world cup was on, there was an incredible buzz and the positivity from the atmosphere / tv, etc really came to light and it drew much bigger crowds. There was a positive experience amongst these games. Is that the same for general fixtures? It' not an experience, a lot of the time it's flat. 

Personally, I love what Toronto brought to the game, it was something new & fresh. When they came to Featherstone the first time, it was an evening game and around 3,500 turned up - It had that "feel" about it. 

The game IMO is missing a spark / flair, etc and it certainly doesn't lack the amount of kicks to the corners.

 

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

I'd be interested to understand what the difference of the attendances are between week day fixtures (thurs & friday) to sat & sun.

I'm sure I read a few years ago, that Leeds love the Friday night games, because of the increase in commercial revenue in the commercial area. It did mean they would get less fans through the gate.

I remember years ago, speaking to a Saints fan pre challenge cup match who noticed my Featherstone shirt and ask why bother supporting them, but he then went on to say they only go to the finals because they always get there. Take the attitude away and be to the point - is that the case with Wigan & Saints fans?

In my opinion the game is less attractive now than it once was late 90's early 00's - there's been too much structure change, but also the game feels very robotic. Compare the Grand Final that's coming on Friday to the Grand FInal in 2003 - it;s a completley different game. Less risk Vs High Risk.

When the 2013 world cup was on, there was an incredible buzz and the positivity from the atmosphere / tv, etc really came to light and it drew much bigger crowds. There was a positive experience amongst these games. Is that the same for general fixtures? It' not an experience, a lot of the time it's flat. 

Personally, I love what Toronto brought to the game, it was something new & fresh. When they came to Featherstone the first time, it was an evening game and around 3,500 turned up - It had that "feel" about it. 

The game IMO is missing a spark / flair, etc and it certainly doesn't lack the amount of kicks to the corners.

 

I think you're right with Leeds. Friday nights work well and haven't impacted the bulk of everyday fans in a noticeably negligible way. As a student who works weekends they are fantastic. From a corporate point of view it also works excellently and should see the club well for the future.

I think the "big game only" followers of clubs shouldn't be taken to heart too much, all teams get far more than their average crowd for finals followings, but inevitably these fans add to a clubs' TV viewing figures which is an attraction of that club commercially.

On the state of the game itself I suppose its just opinion really and does not stop any club attracting new fans. 

I agree on Toronto. Saw them play a fair few times in the UK and there was a buzz about them turning up. That's what we need to replicate for more fixtures.

[The Alchemist]

28 minutes ago, Chris Taylor said:

I'd be interested to understand what the difference of the attendances are between week day fixtures (thurs & friday) to sat & sun.

I'm sure I read a few years ago, that Leeds love the Friday night games, because of the increase in commercial revenue in the commercial area. It did mean they would get less fans through the gate.

I remember years ago, speaking to a Saints fan pre challenge cup match who noticed my Featherstone shirt and ask why bother supporting them, but he then went on to say they only go to the finals because they always get there. Take the attitude away and be to the point - is that the case with Wigan & Saints fans?

In my opinion the game is less attractive now than it once was late 90's early 00's - there's been too much structure change, but also the game feels very robotic. Compare the Grand Final that's coming on Friday to the Grand FInal in 2003 - it;s a completley different game. Less risk Vs High Risk.

When the 2013 world cup was on, there was an incredible buzz and the positivity from the atmosphere / tv, etc really came to light and it drew much bigger crowds. There was a positive experience amongst these games. Is that the same for general fixtures? It' not an experience, a lot of the time it's flat. 

Personally, I love what Toronto brought to the game, it was something new & fresh. When they came to Featherstone the first time, it was an evening game and around 3,500 turned up - It had that "feel" about it. 

The game IMO is missing a spark / flair, etc and it certainly doesn't lack the amount of kicks to the corners.

 

I think it's more the difference between Thursday night and weekend (including Friday) match days, since sky started Thursday night games, attendances are probably 25% down on the comparable attendance for a weekend game, people have other things to do during the week. The bigger concern is the knock on effect to season ticket sales, and even people losing the habit of attending games regularly. No surprise crowds have dropped really. Agree that there is less 'off the cuff' play and as a result some games can be  a bit staid but no more so than other sports.

[Smudger06]

33 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

I think it's more the difference between Thursday night and weekend (including Friday) match days, since sky started Thursday night games, attendances are probably 25% down on the comparable attendance for a weekend game, people have other things to do during the week. The bigger concern is the knock on effect to season ticket sales, and even people losing the habit of attending games regularly. No surprise crowds have dropped really. Agree that there is less 'off the cuff' play and as a result some games can be  a bit staid but no more so than other sports.

Yup, Fridays are doable, most can have a drink without worrying about early shift, school kids can stay out late. Its blooming Thursday that's the issue. 

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Chris Taylor said:

I'd be interested to understand what the difference of the attendances are between week day fixtures (thurs & friday) to sat & sun.

I'm sure I read a few years ago, that Leeds love the Friday night games, because of the increase in commercial revenue in the commercial area. It did mean they would get less fans through the gate.

I remember years ago, speaking to a Saints fan pre challenge cup match who noticed my Featherstone shirt and ask why bother supporting them, but he then went on to say they only go to the finals because they always get there. Take the attitude away and be to the point - is that the case with Wigan & Saints fans?

In my opinion the game is less attractive now than it once was late 90's early 00's - there's been too much structure change, but also the game feels very robotic. Compare the Grand Final that's coming on Friday to the Grand FInal in 2003 - it;s a completley different game. Less risk Vs High Risk.

When the 2013 world cup was on, there was an incredible buzz and the positivity from the atmosphere / tv, etc really came to light and it drew much bigger crowds. There was a positive experience amongst these games. Is that the same for general fixtures? It' not an experience, a lot of the time it's flat. 

Personally, I love what Toronto brought to the game, it was something new & fresh. When they came to Featherstone the first time, it was an evening game and around 3,500 turned up - It had that "feel" about it. 

The game IMO is missing a spark / flair, etc and it certainly doesn't lack the amount of kicks to the corners.

 

Yes, mainly because of loop fixtures, too many meaningless games making it seem like a trudge rather than allowing clubs to create events............which is difficult when you play the same team potentially 4-5 times a season as has sometimes been the case

[whatmichaelsays]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I think you're right with Leeds. Friday nights work well and haven't impacted the bulk of everyday fans in a noticeably negligible way. As a student who works weekends they are fantastic. From a corporate point of view it also works excellently and should see the club well for the future.

I think the "big game only" followers of clubs shouldn't be taken to heart too much, all teams get far more than their average crowd for finals followings, but inevitably these fans add to a clubs' TV viewing figures which is an attraction of that club commercially.

On the state of the game itself I suppose its just opinion really and does not stop any club attracting new fans. 

I agree on Toronto. Saw them play a fair few times in the UK and there was a buzz about them turning up. That's what we need to replicate for more fixtures.

I think the thing with Leeds (and I suppose Wigan as well) was that they stuck with the Friday night thing and their audience adapted to it. You had the corporate influence on Friday nights but I also think that Leeds, being one of the most-televised teams, assumed that most of their games would be moved to Friday at Sky's want, so they simply ran with it. 

In contrast, I recall a lot off clubs have tried on and off with Fridays, presumably trying it for one or two years and then blinking and switching back when attendances didn't grow and fan complaints did. They didn't stick at it and build the audience around the new matchday for any period of time. 

 

 

[Wollo Wollo Wayoo]

30 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the thing with Leeds

For me Leeds benefit from a great location too.  Headingley is such a vibrant area on Friday nights.  We roll up way way before kick off knowing there are many places to eat and drink.  

[Tommygilf]

57 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the thing with Leeds (and I suppose Wigan as well) was that they stuck with the Friday night thing and their audience adapted to it. You had the corporate influence on Friday nights but I also think that Leeds, being one of the most-televised teams, assumed that most of their games would be moved to Friday at Sky's want, so they simply ran with it. 

In contrast, I recall a lot off clubs have tried on and off with Fridays, presumably trying it for one or two years and then blinking and switching back when attendances didn't grow and fan complaints did. They didn't stick at it and build the audience around the new matchday for any period of time. 

 

 

Exactly, Leeds playing on a time other than Friday is now what is dictated by TV it seems. Against Hull KR this year we played Friday despite not being televised for example.

I like Fridays a lot but also wouldn't mind things being mixed up occasionally.

[M j M]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Exactly, Leeds playing on a time other than Friday is now what is dictated by TV it seems. Against Hull KR this year we played Friday despite not being televised for example.

I like Fridays a lot but also wouldn't mind things being mixed up occasionally.

They always have at least one Sunday game a season to be fair.

1 hour ago, Wollo Wollo Wayoo said:

For me Leeds benefit from a great location too.  Headingley is such a vibrant area on Friday nights.  We roll up way way before kick off knowing there are many places to eat and drink.  

I think this is an important point though - a suburban ground with a lot of pubs and restaurants around it is different to an out of town stadium where everyone comes and goes pretty much direct to the game.

So there isn't one size fits all and clubs need to tailor what they do to their local market.

[Tommygilf]

36 minutes ago, M j M said:

They always have at least one Sunday game a season to be fair

Yeah I suppose, I actually liked playing on Bank Holiday Easter Monday last year against Huddersfield as a bit of a mix up to the usual schedule.

[Padge]

On 22/11/2020 at 11:26, fighting irish said:

Here's a few facts; 

Our best players, mix it up regularly in the NRL not just holding their own but excelling week in week out. 

Our England team goes pound for pound with Australia and New Zealand on every occasion with no more that a couple of points between them. 

We do well in most of the World club challenge matches against the best club teams in the world even winning occasionally.

The average standard of player in Super League is a very high standard indeed and I'd back our best athlete's against most other's from other forms of oval ball game.

I've seen things on a Rugby League field the like of which I've never seen any where else in any other sporting venue in terms of excitement, skill, athleticism, camaraderie and pure joy. 

Now even if we accept that we're a ''small'' game with a patchy global footprint blah blah blah that not many people know about, that still doesn't explain why our own fans, who do know all these things can't find the good grace to celebrate our sporting heroes prowess.

I'll take a punt on it. I think its the average Rugby League fans inferiority complex.

That by the way, is a mental illness and could do with a heavy dose of psychotherapy/life coaching if only they could afford it.

It is nothing so complicated, the vast majority of RL supporters are just miserable barstewards. 

[fighting irish]

10 minutes ago, Padge said:

It is nothing so complicated, the vast majority of RL supporters are just miserable barstewards. 

Well it's about time we got some new ones. 

[Padge]

27 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

Well it's about time we got some new ones. 

Yep.