Rupert Prince Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 2 hours ago, Davo5 said: They get the best academy players because they invest time,money & resources into it,something some Superleague clubs obviously don't, Catalans had a lot more big name overseas players last night than either Wigan or Saints have,maybe they are just better at identifying which overseas players actually improve their team. Well French is a cast off. So, effectively was Hastings via Salford. Bullock came from Barrow. Tommy came in and was well really past it at the time. Isa has been here years... he is not a big name. Singleton was obviously not wanted by Leeds and he got his place because of injuries. We lost Bateman and Williams. Now they are big names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly perm Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 As others have said, Wigan and Saints are the top two teams and it’ll be great seeing who comes out on top. It’s not all about the winning team though. As in any sport, there are always different stories and battles across the league. Salford reaching the grand final last year and the cup final this year. Huddersfield under Watson. Relegation battles. Wakefield making 5th place for a few seasons and threatening the top 4. Leeds struggling to get back to former glories. Toronto’s story over the last few years. Warrington’s year. Catalans winning the Challenge Cup and Folau joining the league...I love it all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scubby Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 14 hours ago, GUBRATS said: We desperately need a ' Leicester ' IMO You mean like a Salford who were in the Super League GF at half time last year? Short memory? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 Just now, Scubby said: You mean like a Salford who were in the Super League GF at half time last year? Short memory? Well thats the point.... Leicester won their premiership. Salford didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 1 hour ago, Oxford said: I do find it interesting that people think a match of two top teams guarantees a quality match. The hit or miss nature of these events would pot this severely in doubt. Or in other words despite me looking forward to them, they are more often than not, a disappointment. I don't think anyone is suggesting a match between the top teams guarantees quality... but as you allude to in your last sentence, it does allow people to anticipate quality. My point is that we bemoan the same teams being in the final but from a casual sports viewer perspective, a St Helens Wigan final is one that will grab their attention more than the lesser known teams would. I watch Rugby League every week, probably between 5 and 10 games a week when the Super League and NRL are in full swing so I would welcome seeing some variety in the finals. But I watch the majors in golf and I am happy seeing McIlroy and Woods and I watch the big games in the Premier League when the top teams play each other... in tennis I watch Nadal vs. Federer or Djokovic. Saints and Wigan is our equivalent and I don't think it will put the casual sports fan off. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted November 21, 2020 Author Share Posted November 21, 2020 Well qlad to see plenty of opinions offered No idea what the solution to the same clubs other than the rest getting better Still struggling to get excited about it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I don't think anyone is suggesting a match between the top teams guarantees quality... but as you allude to in your last sentence, it does allow people to anticipate quality. My point is that we bemoan the same teams being in the final but from a casual sports viewer perspective, a St Helens Wigan final is one that will grab their attention more than the lesser known teams would. I watch Rugby League every week, probably between 5 and 10 games a week when the Super League and NRL are in full swing so I would welcome seeing some variety in the finals. But I watch the majors in golf and I am happy seeing McIlroy and Woods and I watch the big games in the Premier League when the top teams play each other... in tennis I watch Nadal vs. Federer or Djokovic. Saints and Wigan is our equivalent and I don't think it will put the casual sports fan off. I think it was more an assumption of guaranteed quality. Anticipation is a key quality and in marketing/selling/ excitement terms we tend to apply only to top teams. Often this means that no matter how good a game between Wakey and the Red Devils is it's not quite as good as the real thing, Sky pundits are particularly bad at this. And Pundits generally appear to lack sanity in dressing up awful games between for example Saints v Wigan whilst always, always using phrases like "No disrespect to but ...." about games between er ... Salford & Trinity. We all like underdogs winning & unless you're a fan of their opposition, there's something psychologically pleasing about this when it happens. Variety doesn't seem to be much of the case in most team sports and even the language of pundits and fans when underdogs win takes on a very odd appearance, the gymnastic reasoning of fans of the top teams and pundits seems to deny one logical reason "They got out played!" When we look at the feel good factor of Salford in the GF and how that would've been extended had they won or when England beat the 'Roos sport has a better feel about it, and seems more positive because of it. So the disussion is not about boring so much better and what we need more often. 3 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Well qlad to see plenty of opinions offered No idea what the solution to the same clubs other than the rest getting better Still struggling to get excited about it Salford are not there, & there's no underdog, so that's hardly surprising. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonT Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 4 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said: Leeds - Hull KR, Wigan, Salford. Warrington - Wigan, Hull KR, Hull FC, St Helens. Catalans - York, Whitehaven, Huddersfield, St Helens, Warrington. Hull - Catalans, Castleford, Leeds, Wigan. Hull - St Helens, Catalans, Wigan, Warrington. Just for reference, these are the teams the last five winners have had to play. We can agree that Catalans’ first two games were particularly easy but aside from that, I don’t think anyone has had a particularly easy route to the final and the trophy. You obviously didn't bother watching their game against York then. If you had, you'd realise just how inaccurate your statement is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Oxford said: When a mindset throughout the game from fans to chairmen predicated on success there will be little variation in outcome because of the stability of what's involved. Change and innovation needed to alter the process would meet with as much resistance by fans and management that it is as unlikely as Wakey getting to the GF. (sorry wakey fans but I couldn't use SRD could I?) Although I've always found it weird being described as a derby I agree! Looking forward to it. Isn't it reputed as the original of all the 'Derby's' and how games between close neighbour's arrived at the name, as the Earl of Derby put up a trophy for the St Helens v Wigan game. Just found this on Wikipedia:- The term "derby" possibly originated from The Derby, a horse race in England, founded by the 12th Earl of Derby in 1780. The 19th Earl has since claimed the Derby name was originally only given to one other sporting event: Rugby league fixtures between St Helens at one end of the family's Knowsley estate and Wigan at the other.[ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Isn't it reputed as the original of all the 'Derby's' and how games between close neighbour's arrived at the name, as the Earl of Derby put up a trophy for the St Helens v Wigan game. Just found this on Wikipedia:- The term "derby" possibly originated from The Derby, a horse race in England, founded by the 12th Earl of Derby in 1780. The 19th Earl has since claimed the Derby name was originally only given to one other sporting event: Rugby league fixtures between St Helens at one end of the family's Knowsley estate and Wigan at the other.[ I cannot verify that in any way Harry. It seems as likely to be apocryphal as it is to be true. And I doubt a lot of things in Wiki. My undestanding of Derby as always been closest neighbours or same town but definitions are not written in stone otherwise we'd never need new dictionaries. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 25 minutes ago, Oxford said: I cannot verify that in any way Harry. It seems as likely to be apocryphal as it is to be true. And I doubt a lot of things in Wiki. My undestanding of Derby as always been closest neighbours or same town but definitions are not written in stone otherwise we'd never need new dictionaries. Well maybe Edward Richard William Stanley, 19th Earl of Derby, is at present 58 years old does he have family records to make such claims I wonder, if not what would he gain by making false statements or one of doubtful authenticity. Yes your understanding of the 'Derby' is of a contest of close neighbour's and it is now known so wherever it is played out and in whatever sport, so how in your opinion did such a contest arrive at the name of 'Derby'? I actually like the story, and proudly tell people whenever the term is brought up usually by followers of Football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Well maybe Edward Richard William Stanley, 19th Earl of Derby, is at present 58 years old does he have family records to make such claims I wonder, if not what would he gain by making false statements or one of doubtful authenticity. Yes your understanding of the 'Derby' is of a contest of close neighbour's and it is now known so wherever it is played out and in whatever sport, so how in your opinion did such a contest arrive at the name of 'Derby'? I actually like the story, and proudly tell people whenever the term is brought up usually by followers of Football. It's a good story no doubt but a bit like some aristo being the first person to stick something between two bits of bread. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Oxford said: It's a good story no doubt but a bit like some aristo being the first person to stick something between two bits of bread. The Earl of Butty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 Just now, Harry Stottle said: The Earl of Butty? All you really know of history is they'd have avoided calling the butty the Harold Higginbottom in favour of someone whose sole claim to being a direct descendent is along the female members of the ancestors. Or has my Dad used to say "I think the lodger had it in for him!" 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 46 minutes ago, Oxford said: I cannot verify that in any way Harry. It seems as likely to be apocryphal as it is to be true. And I doubt a lot of things in Wiki. My undestanding of Derby as always been closest neighbours or same town but definitions are not written in stone otherwise we'd never need new dictionaries. I beg to differ. A "derby" was the game between the two premier clubs of the day at whatever sport; a "local derby" was a keenly contested game between clubs located close together. Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 Just now, Blind side johnny said: I beg to differ. A "derby" was the game between the two premier clubs of the day at whatever sport; a "local derby" was a keenly contested game between clubs located close together. That seems reasonable Johnny 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind side johnny Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 7 minutes ago, Oxford said: It's a good story no doubt but a bit like some aristo being the first person to stick something between two bits of bread. Or William Webb Ellis even? Sport, amongst other things, is a dream-world offering escape from harsh reality and the disturbing prospect of change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 Just now, Blind side johnny said: Or William Webb Ellis even? Yeah even though he was from Salford I've always thought that was a cracker of a myth. But I don't believe he put anything between two bit of bread either! 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 What's the origin of the phrase 'Local derby'? It is widely reported that the phrase originates from the town of Ashbourne, Derbyshire, England. There, since as early as the 12th century, two teams from opposite ends of the town play a rough and tumble football/rugby type of game called the Royal Shrovetide Football Match. The match is between the 'uppers' and the 'downers' - townspeople from opposite sides of the river that runs through the town. The object of the game is to get a painted leather ball into the opposition's goal by fair means or foul. You might get a flavour of the scene from the fact that the goals are three miles apart and that one of the (few) rules is that 'unnecessary' violence is frowned upon. This type of game used to be common on feast days throughout England, and this example is still played out annually at Ashbourne. In normal circumstances evidence linking an event with a phrase having a 900 hundred-year pedigree would be persuasive. Unfortunately, there's nothing apart from local folklore, which is always present when locals lay claim to a phrase, to link the phrase to the town or to the Shrovetide match. After all, the phrase isn't 'a local Ashbourne'. The actual source is more prosaic. The Derby is the name of the premier horse race in England and the contest was founded by the twelfth Earl of Derby in 1780. Since at least as early as 1840 'derby' has been used as a noun in English to denote any kind of sporting contest. A local derby is just a sporting contest between local rivals. Early uses of the phrase referred to football (soccer) matches and the first printed citation appears to be the Daily Express, October 1914: "A local Derby between Liverpool and Everton". Such matches between the two clubs are still energetically contested. Many other clubs in this and other sports now meet to contest their own 'local derby'. Copyright © Gary Martin 'Local derby' - meaning and origin. (phrases.org.uk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 8 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said: I beg to differ. A "derby" was the game between the two premier clubs of the day at whatever sport; a "local derby" was a keenly contested game between clubs located close together. So my Question johnny is how was the name to describe such a contest arrived at? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 5 hours ago, JohnM said: Plays bass for a supergroup by the name of North Downs. Saw him at the Permeable Rocks festival 2 years ago. Excellent "Freedom without socialism is privilege and injustice, socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality" - Mikhail Bakunin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 6 minutes ago, Oxford said: Yeah even though he was from Salford I've always thought that was a cracker of a myth. But I don't believe he put anything between two bit of bread either! Good un, Oxy that made me laugh out loud, a good tonic for a miserable November Saturday afternoon in Isolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, JohnM said: What's the origin of the phrase 'Local derby'? It is widely reported that the phrase originates from the town of Ashbourne, Derbyshire, England. There, since as early as the 12th century, two teams from opposite ends of the town play a rough and tumble football/rugby type of game called the Royal Shrovetide Football Match. The match is between the 'uppers' and the 'downers' - townspeople from opposite sides of the river that runs through the town. The object of the game is to get a painted leather ball into the opposition's goal by fair means or foul. You might get a flavour of the scene from the fact that the goals are three miles apart and that one of the (few) rules is that 'unnecessary' violence is frowned upon. This type of game used to be common on feast days throughout England, and this example is still played out annually at Ashbourne. In normal circumstances evidence linking an event with a phrase having a 900 hundred-year pedigree would be persuasive. Unfortunately, there's nothing apart from local folklore, which is always present when locals lay claim to a phrase, to link the phrase to the town or to the Shrovetide match. After all, the phrase isn't 'a local Ashbourne'. The actual source is more prosaic. The Derby is the name of the premier horse race in England and the contest was founded by the twelfth Earl of Derby in 1780. Since at least as early as 1840 'derby' has been used as a noun in English to denote any kind of sporting contest. A local derby is just a sporting contest between local rivals. Early uses of the phrase referred to football (soccer) matches and the first printed citation appears to be the Daily Express, October 1914: "A local Derby between Liverpool and Everton". Such matches between the two clubs are still energetically contested. Many other clubs in this and other sports now meet to contest their own 'local derby'. Copyright © Gary Martin 'Local derby' - meaning and origin. (phrases.org.uk) But did he put anything between two back doors or not? 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ullman Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 17 hours ago, GUBRATS said: Same teams again Excellent choice of venue though, I'm sure we can all agree. "I'm from a fishing family. Trawlermen are like pirates with biscuits." - Lucy Beaumont. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Evans Posted November 21, 2020 Share Posted November 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, Ullman said: Excellent choice of venue though, I'm sure we can all agree. I thought they missed a trick with not using post office rd like..... but they k-com is a fab alternative Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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