hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, Celt said: No, of course not. However if he is the number 1 player in the league (if...) then surely clubs would come in with SERIOUSLY improved terms on what Castleford gave him 3 years ago?? We keep hearing it a "short career" and players have to grab opportunities while they can. (Denny Solomona leaving Cas being one such example) I wasn't aware he was on a 5 year contract, but even so, I can't see many big offers coming in for him, because personally I don't think he's that good. I suspect clubs know this, and will not exactly be falling over themselves to sign him. There is no 'IF' no matter how hard you try, Celt haha! He IS the number one player based on the subjective opinion of those who voted and also objectively is as he won the award that says as much. Two of the people I know best from the professional game are Macca and Ryan Hall. The latter spent most of his career in SL despite numerous (pretty much every season between the age of about 22 to 28) calls to go to the NRL and he declined for various reasons. He did go in the end when we all sadly knew that ship had sailed. Just because Macca is now the best in SL doesn't mean he HAS to do anything to prove that further - his aim now is to go all the way with Cas and also make a future for himself and his family after the playing days are done, coaching most likely. At 31 a bumped up 2 year contract at a supposedly 'top' SL side doesn't look that desirable all of a sudden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Prendle Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 3 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said: As we all know awards like this are massively opinion based - so here's mine. Paul McShane is the most naturally talented RL player i've ever met and will go on to be one the best SL coaches in years to come. How many have you met? You must be able to count them on one hand if McShane is "The most naturally talented". That must be the either the most over-hyped, or the most biased, comment I have ever read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 10 minutes ago, Jim Prendle said: How many have you met? You must be able to count them on one hand if McShane is "The most naturally talented". That must be the either the most over-hyped, or the most biased, comment I have ever read. You don't need to have met a player to draw conclusions about their ability, Jim. I merely worded it that way because in this case we have met. Intrigued to know why you don't see him in this light? I'll not deny a degree of bias from my point of view, but it's well founded bias at the very least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voteronniegibbs Posted November 24, 2020 Share Posted November 24, 2020 11 hours ago, Celt said: Because he will surely be in demand? And at the end of the day, Castleford is a small club, with a serious limit on how much they can pay. If he is the Best Player in the League he will surely be the target for some much better offers from either the biggest SuperLeague clubs... Or more logically the NRL, who have the spending power to get the best players in the world. As it is such a short career, and Super League salaries are really quite low in sporting terms, the Best Player in the League will no doubt have a chance to double, or treble his salary? In fact.... Would it not be strange if he doesn't end up as a marquee player somewhere? As I said before... The club's aren't stupid. (if he is that good anyway) Put the fishing rod down. It's boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Watt Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 On 24/11/2020 at 06:42, Old Frightful said: Tommy Harris won the Lance Todd Trophy at Wembley in 1960 after his team lost 38-5. The MOS is an award for individual effort in a game, not whether his side wins or not. Was at Wembley to witness that. Under current concussion rules he would not have made it to half time and had to leave the field injured in the last quarter of the match. Award was unanimous and rewarded sheer guts and skill under extreme adversity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Frightful Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 From facebook : "I am the proudest wife on the planet right now!!!! My husband is the 2020 Man of Steel.. He was more emotional when he walked in the house with this trophy yesterday afternoon than he was when any of the kids were born Congratulations love! Me & our boys are so proud of you! Can’t wait to celebrate properly when we can! Love you so much " Credit- Vikki Mcshane Can't argue with that...great stuff, congrats to a lovely family! Hull FC....The Sons of God... (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Prendle Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 19 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said: You don't need to have met a player to draw conclusions about their ability, Jim. I merely worded it that way because in this case we have met. Intrigued to know why you don't see him in this light? I'll not deny a degree of bias from my point of view, but it's well founded bias at the very least. That's fair enough. As you correctly state, you do not need to have met a player to draw conclusions about their ability, yet you did. McShane is obviously an excellent RL player, but "Most naturally talented"? What are the natural talents of a RL player? Speed, strength, elusiveness, stamina, the ability to read, and influence the game? McShane may be a good player, but I wouldn't put him top of the list in any of the above. I was very surprised when I read that he won the MOS, but I haven't seen every game played by every player this season so I guess it is hard for me to judge how deserving he is of this accolade over many other players. I also don't subscribe to the view that the MOS needs to come from one of the more successful clubs in any one season. I'm a Wigan fan, and I'm not upset that that French wasn't chosen. He has been breathtaking in spells this season and may have yet more to give, but of the Wigan players in the frame I would have chosen Liam Farrell. Farrell is not the most gifted of athletes, but he keeps turning up and has done for more than a decade. For that alone, I can't understand why McShane is more deserving of the award than him, or that dirty git Walmsley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyscoot Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 8 hours ago, Celt said: Not fishing. If the guy is really the best player in SuperLeague, he isn't going to be at Castleford for long, is he? If he stays at Castleford... Then I think it is fair to say that the people with skin in the game, (the pro clubs) don't rate him as the best player in the league. (Or even the best hooker). There's more to it than that. Sean O'Loughlin had numerous offers from NRL clubs and is well respected over there, but he simply didn't want to leave Wigan for whatever reason. From the sounds of it, McShane is settled where he is with a young family. It's not easy to uproot them to Australia compared to a young lad with no ties or responsibilities. Just because he's never gone to a "big" club or to Oz doesn't mean offers haven't been made and if offers have been made then they obviously do rate him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnM Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 Quelle surprise! Another wrong decision, naturally! I do wonder at times about some so-called fans. Is this not good enough? Steve Prescott MBE Man of Steel chairman Ellery Hanley MBE explained: “The award deservedly goes to Paul McShane because he performs in every game he plays in. He is ‘Mr Dependable’ and everyone holds him in the highest regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 2 hours ago, Old Frightful said: From facebook : "I am the proudest wife on the planet right now!!!! My husband is the 2020 Man of Steel.. He was more emotional when he walked in the house with this trophy yesterday afternoon than he was when any of the kids were born Congratulations love! Me & our boys are so proud of you! Can’t wait to celebrate properly when we can! Love you so much " Credit- Vikki Mcshane Can't argue with that...great stuff, congrats to a lovely family! Absolutly. Fingers crossed his lads have talent. I just hope they avoid the tatoos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, JohnM said: Quelle surprise! Another wrong decision, naturally! I do wonder at times about some so-called fans. Is this not good enough? Steve Prescott MBE Man of Steel chairman Ellery Hanley MBE explained: “The award deservedly goes to Paul McShane because he performs in every game he plays in. He is ‘Mr Dependable’ and everyone holds him in the highest regard. Hanley sums it up perfectly. The Man of Steel goes to the player who has performed the best over the season in the eyes of the judges. This doesn't necessarily mean he is the best player in the game as these two are subtlety but importantly different. As an example; Hanley himself won three Man of Steel awards as the best performing player in the season. If the award was simply to be recognised as the best player in the UK game then Hanley would have won 10 awards. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 12 hours ago, voteronniegibbs said: Put the fishing rod down. It's boring. Just stick him on ignore, hes just upset because it didnt go to one of his Aussies Supermen, he loses his little mind anytime anyone dare say an English SL thing/person/team is better. Its hilariously pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkw Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: Hanley sums it up perfectly. The Man of Steel goes to the player who has performed the best over the season in the eyes of the judges. This doesn't necessarily mean he is the best player in the game as these two are subtlety but importantly different. As an example; Hanley himself won three Man of Steel awards as the best performing player in the season. If the award was simply to be recognised as the best player in the UK game then Hanley would have won 10 awards Per Year Fixed it for you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Frightful Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 3 hours ago, Rupert Prince said: Absolutly. Fingers crossed his lads have talent. I just hope they avoid the tatoos. Wow...have you seen Vikki's tattoos? Hull FC....The Sons of God... (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 I think McShane winning shows that its the system they use to pick the winner that's seriously flawed. None of the facts or data support the judging panels opinion. McShane didn't finish in the top 3 of any of the key indicators (Top try scorer, tackler, offloader, goal kicker, metre maker etc.). In fact the only indicator tables he finished high up in were the detrimental ones with 50 missed tackles and 14 penalties conceded (compare that with another hooker like Roby who had just 5 missed tackles and conceded only 3 penalties all year). St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Frightful Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 32 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said: I think McShane winning shows that its the system they use to pick the winner that's seriously flawed. None of the facts or data support the judging panels opinion. McShane didn't finish in the top 3 of any of the key indicators (Top try scorer, tackler, offloader, goal kicker, metre maker etc.). In fact the only indicator tables he finished high up in were the detrimental ones with 50 missed tackles and 14 penalties conceded (compare that with another hooker like Roby who had just 5 missed tackles and conceded only 3 penalties all year). Who's he play for then? Hull FC....The Sons of God... (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 13 minutes ago, Old Frightful said: Who's he play for then? Before you try and turn this into some sort of club biased debate, I used Roby purely as an example to demonstrate that no consideration of a players Stats were obviously used when picking the MOS. If they were then McShane wouldn't have been anywhere near the top as he isn't even the most consistent and best performing hooker in the league, let alone best player. IMO the shortlist should be drawn up from the best performing player in each position (FB, Wing, centre etc.) based on measurable stats, with points being allocated against each of the key indicators (and points deducted for poor behaviours such as penalties conceded, missed tackles, yellow cards etc.). If they then wanted to use 'opinion' to select the final winner then fine, at least the overall winner would be a player who has clearly demonstrated their excellent performance across the season based on something quantifiable. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said: IMO the shortlist should be drawn up from the best performing player in each position (FB, Wing, centre etc.) based on measurable stats, with points being allocated against each of the key indicators What would you use as the measurable stats to identify the best performing hooker for the year? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: What would you use as the measurable stats to identify the best performing hooker for the year? Number of games for saints. Number of tries for saints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Frightful Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 46 minutes ago, Dave T said: Number of games for saints. Number of tries for saints. Hahaha! Just brilliant. Hull FC....The Sons of God... (Well, we are about to be crucified on Good Friday) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris22 Posted November 25, 2020 Share Posted November 25, 2020 1 hour ago, Dave T said: Number of games for saints. Number of tries for saints. On that basis (if we're going with hookers only), then Aaron Smith for Man of Steel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 18 hours ago, Dunbar said: What would you use as the measurable stats to identify the best performing hooker for the year? You use the same full list of measures for every position (as is already made by Opta), just change the weighting against each measure depending on the position. So for hooker you would put more weighing on measures like tackles made, tackles missed, marker tackles, dummy half runs For props you put a greater weighting on measures like metres made, metres after contact, offloads For wingers you put a greater weighting on measure like tries scored Using a weighted measure system gives a clear indication of overall performance in each position. Then as I've said the MOS shortlist should then be made up of the best performing player in each position, a FB a winger, a centre, a SO, a SH, a prop, a hooker and a Back rower. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 minute ago, Saint Toppy said: You use the same full list of measures for every position (as is already made by Opta), just change the weighting against each measure depending on the position. So for hooker you would put more weighing on measures like tackles made, tackles missed, marker tackles, dummy half runs For props you put a greater weighting on measures like metres made, metres after contact, offloads For wingers you put a greater weighting on measure like tries scored Using a weighted measure system gives a clear indication of overall performance in each position. Then as I've said the MOS shortlist should then be made up of the best performing player in each position, a FB a winger, a centre, a SO, a SH, a prop, a hooker and a Back rower. It is an interesting proposal. As people have noticed and commented on here, I am a bit of a stato and use stats a lot in conversation regarding a players contribution or comparing one player to another. I think the stats for certain players are very valuable in particular when they are directly linked to their role... for example carries, metres made and metres per carry for a middle forward. I think that is a very explicit and clear view of their contribution. But I do believe that the stats have their limitations and they become very obvious in the spine of 6, 7 & 9. How a player manages their team around the park and manages the game cannot be evidenced in stats and needs to have a subjective view. I don't believe that any of the stats you mention (tackles made, tackles missed, marker tackles, dummy half runs) can accurately demonstrate a hookers contribution to a game as they could have had a great game managing the game plan and offering quality distribution and creating opportunities for attack without any of this appearing in the stats. I think quality of contribution over 80 minutes needs to be a subjective call made by qualified individuals. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 21 minutes ago, Dunbar said: It is an interesting proposal. As people have noticed and commented on here, I am a bit of a stato and use stats a lot in conversation regarding a players contribution or comparing one player to another. I think the stats for certain players are very valuable in particular when they are directly linked to their role... for example carries, metres made and metres per carry for a middle forward. I think that is a very explicit and clear view of their contribution. But I do believe that the stats have their limitations and they become very obvious in the spine of 6, 7 & 9. How a player manages their team around the park and manages the game cannot be evidenced in stats and needs to have a subjective view. I don't believe that any of the stats you mention (tackles made, tackles missed, marker tackles, dummy half runs) can accurately demonstrate a hookers contribution to a game as they could have had a great game managing the game plan and offering quality distribution and creating opportunities for attack without any of this appearing in the stats. I think quality of contribution over 80 minutes needs to be a subjective call made by qualified individuals. I agree with you Stats do have their limitations, which I why I suggested just using it as a way for determining the MOS shortlist, not to pick the actual winner. A panel can then pick the winner and they would be able to use opinion to consider things like overall game management and a players overall influence on a teams performance St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunsletgreenandgold Posted November 26, 2020 Share Posted November 26, 2020 1 hour ago, Dunbar said: It is an interesting proposal. As people have noticed and commented on here, I am a bit of a stato and use stats a lot in conversation regarding a players contribution or comparing one player to another. I think the stats for certain players are very valuable in particular when they are directly linked to their role... for example carries, metres made and metres per carry for a middle forward. I think that is a very explicit and clear view of their contribution. But I do believe that the stats have their limitations and they become very obvious in the spine of 6, 7 & 9. How a player manages their team around the park and manages the game cannot be evidenced in stats and needs to have a subjective view. I don't believe that any of the stats you mention (tackles made, tackles missed, marker tackles, dummy half runs) can accurately demonstrate a hookers contribution to a game as they could have had a great game managing the game plan and offering quality distribution and creating opportunities for attack without any of this appearing in the stats. I think quality of contribution over 80 minutes needs to be a subjective call made by qualified individuals. Very well put! Stats aren't a new thing - we could have been going off them for years if that's what an award like this was all about. I also love my stats but alas they provide little in the way of context or understanding. We do already give out awards for some individual stats - that should never be the case for MoS. It has to be subjective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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