Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

but has infact been primed

No I didn't say that Harry. I simply think that value etc as put forward is a disguise for cheap & unproblematic. That leads to certain clubs losing out before they even put in a bid. Those that dropped out saw this I think. And it is the SL business model on the whole a bit boring, unadventurous, risk averse and hope it costs nowt. If people see that as a conspiracy I think they're simply missing the SL logic imperative of why TWP was assassinated.

[Blind side johnny]

I suppose that an interesting conjecture, and not one that the independent panel will make, is which club would suffer the LEAST from being promoted then relegated straight away. In my view that would be Toulouse who already have a mostly FT squad; most other clubs might well suffer from recruiting FT players then needing to revert to PT again after their downfall. In many ways this can be the most damaging experience of all for clubs.

[gavin7094]

15 hours ago, OMEGA said:

Personally I’d like to see York get promoted, they’ve steadily grown with a good financial footing over the last two or three years. They’ve just moved into a purpose-built Stadium which would be a great asset to super league.

Perhaps their biggest attribute would be geographical as it’s a small step from rugby league heartland into a city that has an international profile  and a well established  amateur  game surrounding it. If the rugby league has ambitions to expand into the north-east then York would be the logical choice! 

Sorry to contradict you, but York doesn't really have a well established amateur game.  As far as I am aware, there are now only 3 clubs in York: Heworth, Acorn and the All Blacks (though I'm happy to be contradicted). The York and District league disappeared decades ago.

The hope is that a successful York side, plus the stimulus provided by the World Cup, will stimulate growth of the amateur game in the area. There are tentative signs that this is beginning to happen already. 

[gavin7094]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So you are in all intent and purpose going back to a question I posed a few days ago in relation to the independent panel that has no affiliation with any club, which has been sourced and put together at great expense (well at least that sounds meaningful), but has infact been primed and is ready to exert the instructions handed down by SL and conveyed by Mr Elstone. H'mmmm food for thought that Oxy!

The 3 Super League staff on the committee are surely there to represent the SL clubs though.  They were never going to be truly independent, just independent of any affiliation to a particular club. 

[Scubby]

7 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

I suppose that an interesting conjecture, and not one that the independent panel will make, is which club would suffer the LEAST from being promoted then relegated straight away. In my view that would be Toulouse who already have a mostly FT squad; most other clubs might well suffer from recruiting FT players then needing to revert to PT again after their downfall. In many ways this can be the most damaging experience of all for clubs.

Yes people forget that many players have good jobs. It is a huge risk to give that up for a one or two year full time contact (for less money sometimes) including a relegation clause. 

[gavin7094]

7 minutes ago, Blind side johnny said:

I suppose that an interesting conjecture, and not one that the independent panel will make, is which club would suffer the LEAST from being promoted then relegated straight away. In my view that would be Toulouse who already have a mostly FT squad; most other clubs might well suffer from recruiting FT players then needing to revert to PT again after their downfall. In many ways this can be the most damaging experience of all for clubs.

I don't necessarily see that this would be a damaging experience.

Suppose York go up.  They'd need to recruit and go full time, so they'd spend much of the SL money to achieve this.  They'd probably get relegated.  As long as they don't overspend in a desperate gamble to stay up, I can't see the downside. 

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, gavin7094 said:

The 3 Super League staff on the committee are surely there to represent the SL clubs though.  They were never going to be truly independent, just independent of any affiliation to a particular club. 

Please remind me who the SL representative's are, in my ignorance I did think it was totally independent of SL influence.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Scubby said:

Yes people forget that many players have good jobs. It is a huge risk to give that up for a one or two year full time contact (for less money sometimes) including a relegation clause. 

So Scubby, should only teams who can gaurentee a FT roster be considered?

[gavin7094]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Really, 

I keep seeing this oft qouted poll that has York comfortably as the preferential choice, I would ask will all those who voted for York get up out of the living room and get along to watch, alternatively will those who voted for York and remain in their living room if not already a Sky subscriber will the inclusion of York into SL persuade them to take out a Sky subscription.

York average attendance 2019 - 2125, but the main thing in that figure is how many home fans attended, if selected it will be interesting to observe how many more bums they put on the seats.

You make a number of relevant points. 

The assumption is that only York fans voted for York in that poll.  I had assumed it was fans of all clubs? 

The question of Sky subscriptions. Would Sky sell more packages (or Betfred take more bets or Batchelors sell more mushy peas etc.) if York were in, rather than Toulouse or Leigh, for example?  I must admit to not knowing much about the economics of that.   My best guess is yes though. York is not really a sporting city.  The growth of Knights is arguably the biggest sporting success story for decades. The potential is there, though turning that into revenues is uncertain. 

York's attendance would almost certainly increase.  However, to what is unknown.  Having not been in the top tier for nearly 40 years, we have no idea. The new ground will help, at least initially, but it's location probably won't. 

[Scubby]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

So Scubby, should only teams who can gaurentee a FT roster be considered?

Nope but those that aren't full time are going to struggle immensely over 8 months. Aside from the training and conditioning aspect, you have games regularly taking place over Thursdays and Fridays. Part time players can handle it over a few weeks but it will go downhill big time over the season. 

[gavin7094]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Please remind me who the SL representative's are, in my ignorance I did think it was totally independent of SL influence.

Chris Anderson, Dave Rotherham and Graham Odlin.

[Oxford]

24 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

should only teams who can gaurentee a FT roster be considered?

No of course it shouldn't be limited in that way

1 hour ago, Oxford said:

The least competitive. Will go down again without too much trouble

BTW the Bulls new kit is very SL worthy!

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

I suppose that an interesting conjecture, and not one that the independent panel will make, is which club would suffer the LEAST from being promoted then relegated straight away. In my view that would be Toulouse who already have a mostly FT squad; most other clubs might well suffer from recruiting FT players then needing to revert to PT again after their downfall. In many ways this can be the most damaging experience of all for clubs.

Possibly, and I'd also suggest London, as they are the only team in the group to have actually experienced relegation and not had some sort of financial problems after.

[Oxford]

9 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Possibly, and I'd also suggest London, as they are the only team in the group to have actually experienced relegation and not had some sort of financial problems after.

True Tommy and they could also pretend it's expansion.

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 horse race between Toulouse and York IMHO:)

With York to play 2/3 matches a year in Toronto from 2022 onwards (If not York other teams) 

You read it here first 

 

 

P 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, gavin7094 said:

You make a number of relevant points. 

The assumption is that only York fans voted for York in that poll.  I had assumed it was fans of all clubs? 

The question of Sky subscriptions. Would Sky sell more packages (or Betfred take more bets or Batchelors sell more mushy peas etc.) if York were in, rather than Toulouse or Leigh, for example?  I must admit to not knowing much about the economics of that.   My best guess is yes though. York is not really a sporting city.  The growth of Knights is arguably the biggest sporting success story for decades. The potential is there, though turning that into revenues is uncertain. 

York's attendance would almost certainly increase.  However, to what is unknown.  Having not been in the top tier for nearly 40 years, we have no idea. The new ground will help, at least initially, but it's location probably won't. 

Sorry Gavin, I didn't make my post very clear, I did mean to say all fans, in that would they follow their team to York, reading it back it does look like I was just addressing York fans.

Thanks for your honesty in the post 

 

[ATLANTISMAN]

1 minute ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry Gavin, I didn't make my post very clear, I did mean to say all fans, in that would they follow their team to York, reading it back it does look like I was just addressing York fans.

Thanks for your honesty in the post 

 

York would be popular with fans nice day out in the summer

 

P 

[gavin7094]

2 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

York would be popular with fans nice day out in the summer

 

P 

Plus there is a novelty value. Sounds trivial but people do complain of same old teams year in, year out etc.

[Harry Stottle]

8 minutes ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

York would be popular with fans nice day out in the summer

 

P 

As Gavin says the ground is quite away crom the City Centre, that would suggest those who go would be going to watch the match, Bootham Crescent was/is close enough to the city to sneak away for a couple of hours from those who are just interested in the day out and meet up later.

[GaryHall]

3 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

As Gavin says the ground is quite away crom the City Centre, that would suggest those who go would be going to watch the match, Bootham Crescent was/is close enough to the city to sneak away for a couple of hours from those who are just interested in the day out and meet up later.

LNER Stadium is 2.5 miles from York Minster, on a direct bus route with buses running every 12 minutes from the city centre. The distance is exactly the same as Leeds Station to Headingley. Surprisingly no one ever remarks that Headingley is too far out of Leeds city centre.

[graveyard johnny]

done work on a site next to the york ground- the parking is an absolute nightmare - york is permit crazy where ever you go 

[gavin7094]

14 minutes ago, GaryHall said:

LNER Stadium is 2.5 miles from York Minster, on a direct bus route with buses running every 12 minutes from the city centre. The distance is exactly the same as Leeds Station to Headingley. Surprisingly no one ever remarks that Headingley is too far out of Leeds city centre.

But do lots of people go to watch the Rhinos in order to have a day out in Leeds? I would suggest not.  Plus there are 2 railway stations less than 10 mins walk from Headingley.

Quite a lot has been made of the attraction of York as a tourist destination and that rugby fans might like to visit the city. Though there's some truth in this, the reality may be quite different. Most people will travel by car and approach on the A64 from Leeds and the A1. You then need to park near enough to the city centre (which can be difficult depending on day/time) to walk in, walk round and return to the car before driving to the stadium. I think for many this will be too much faffing around and they'll just end up going straight to the ground and going straight home afterwards.

[GUBRATS]

3 minutes ago, gavin7094 said:

But do lots of people go to watch the Rhinos in order to have a day out in Leeds? I would suggest not.  Plus there are 2 railway stations less than 10 mins walk from Headingley.

Quite a lot has been made of the attraction of York as a tourist destination and that rugby fans might like to visit the city. Though there's some truth in this, the reality may be quite different. Most people will travel by car and approach on the A64 from Leeds and the A1. You then need to park near enough to the city centre (which can be difficult depending on day/time) to walk in, walk round and return to the car before driving to the stadium. I think for many this will be too much faffing around and they'll just end up going straight to the ground and going straight home afterwards.

No , no , no , no , there's the big owse and the White orse to see

[GaryHall]

There is a dedicated car park for the stadium for 400 cars both the Knights and York City have agreed a £5 charge. There is also a Park and Ride car  park attached to the stadium. Unrestricted on street car parking is also available within 10 minutes walk from the stadium.

 

[gavin7094]

Just now, GaryHall said:

There is a dedicated car park for the stadium for 400 cars both the Knights and York City have agreed a £5 charge. There is also a Park and Ride car  park attached to the stadium. Unrestricted on street car parking is also available within 10 minutes walk from the stadium.

 

Yes I know there is.  So, are you suggesting that a family from, say, St. Helens, will drive across on a Friday afternoon, park at the stadium, take the bus into town, walk around York, find their way back to the bus stop and take the bus back to the stadium?  It's still quite a bit of faff. I think they'll just go to the ground.