Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

[PEANUT HEAD]

3 minutes ago, Oxford said:

So the thread could be 5,000,000 posts about the refereeing, fantastic solution!

Yes but it's the fair way to do it, promotion for playing rugby instead of which country you are in or what history you have.

[PEANUT HEAD]

Just now, Phil said:

They still score 0/100 on an Experian check and show a negative net worth of £850,000

I’ve no particular axe to grind but on that basis alone they surely can’t be considered 

But they are Bradford  Bulls.

[Hela Wigmen]

Let’s be brutally honest here, whoever gets promoted isn’t “embarrassing to the game”. Embarrassing to the game is the fact we’re here in the first place and having to promote a side this way, rather than at the end of a season and play-off series. 

Embarrassing to the game was the Toronto Wolfpack debacle. From day one, the lack of due diligence and lack of strategy around their inclusion and how the game was shaped by their inclusion and they helped shape the game of Rugby League was embarrassing. The way in which Toronto Wolfpack operated in terms of repaying their creditors and their players was embarrassing. The way in which people treated Toronto Wolfpack, like lepers in fact, was embarrassing. Family sport? That’s embarrassing. The way in which this year has unfolded both from Super League and Toronto Wolfpack has been embarrassing. Embarrassing to the fans is the way this looks like a hatchet job and the successful team looks to have had the criteria shaped around them.

It’s quite sad that we’ve lost out on a possible Championship play-off race of Leigh, Toulouse, York, Bradford, Featherstone with Halifax, Widnes and a couple of others chasing the pack, though hopefully we get one next year. 

It won’t be particularly embarrassing if any side that comes up this year gets relegated. Had they won promotion onfield, they’d have most likely been favourites for the drop, so as long as they’re not massively out of their depth in the way Halifax were in around 2003 or London were in 2014, it won’t be embarrassing. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

2 hours ago, Click said:

London is an RL area now? We must have done something right the last 30 years then.

Ha... I was quite pleased with him saying that too! 

[Oxford]

1 minute ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

Yes but it's the fair way to do it,

Did the complete history of fans, fairness, being bent, being wrong and otherwise a Total bias pass you by?

 

[sweaty craiq]

5 minutes ago, Phil said:

They still score 0/100 on an Experian check and show a negative net worth of £850,000

I’ve no particular axe to grind but on that basis alone they surely can’t be considered 

Its improving

[PEANUT HEAD]

5 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Did the complete history of fans, fairness, being bent, being wrong and otherwise a Total bias pass you by?

 

What is bent and wrong about a play off.

[PEANUT HEAD]

6 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Did the complete history of fans, fairness, being bent, being wrong and otherwise a Total bias pass you by?

 

The only thing that would be bent and wrong is the bulls being fast tracked back into SL above all the other teams. 

[Mumby Magic]

11 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Let’s be brutally honest here, whoever gets promoted isn’t “embarrassing to the game”. Embarrassing to the game is the fact we’re here in the first place and having to promote a side this way, rather than at the end of a season and play-off series. 

Embarrassing to the game was the Toronto Wolfpack debacle. From day one, the lack of due diligence and lack of strategy around their inclusion and how the game was shaped by their inclusion and they helped shape the game of Rugby League was embarrassing. The way in which Toronto Wolfpack operated in terms of repaying their creditors and their players was embarrassing. The way in which people treated Toronto Wolfpack, like lepers in fact, was embarrassing. Family sport? That’s embarrassing. The way in which this year has unfolded both from Super League and Toronto Wolfpack has been embarrassing. Embarrassing to the fans is the way this looks like a hatchet job and the successful team looks to have had the criteria shaped around them.

It’s quite sad that we’ve lost out on a possible Championship play-off race of Leigh, Toulouse, York, Bradford, Featherstone with Halifax, Widnes and a couple of others chasing the pack, though hopefully we get one next year. 

It won’t be particularly embarrassing if any side that comes up this year gets relegated. Had they won promotion onfield, they’d have most likely been favourites for the drop, so as long as they’re not massively out of their depth in the way Halifax were in around 2003 or London were in 2014, it won’t be embarrassing. 

Tis a fair point. Mine is from a transparency and political angle. 

[sweaty craiq]

1 minute ago, Mumby Magic said:

Tis a fair point. Mine is from a transparency and political angle. 

Can you explain who owns Bradford Bulls, is it this BBBBB or BB 2017 ?? I am very confused

[Smudger06]

13 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Can you explain who owns Bradford Bulls, is it this BBBBB or BB 2017 ?? I am very confused

BBBBBBBBBBBBBB own Bradford 2017. 

[EagleEyePie]

In fairness to Bradford they will surely be able to put in one of the strongest bids based on the criteria. It's just that the criteria seems to be more than just a little bit contrived to make it so that Bradford could apply (since when has top 6 ever been a relevant finish in the Championship? No insolvency event since Jan 2018? Only going back 3 years for insolvency events is embarrassing).

It's also the report that Elstone commissioned into Toronto that makes the whole process come across as farcical. Particularly when that report focused on the 'crowded' market in Toronto and the lack of commercial value of the club. If those points are so crucial then they are a negative against pretty much every club applying.

If Bradford are selected then it looks embarrassing because not only do they have a history of financial instability but it's also a huge conflict of interest with the RFL owning the lease to Odsal and so having a vested interest in bringing Super League rugby back to the ground. They also don't really stack up in terms of being competitive on the field over the last few years. Add to that the fact that they will presumably play at Odsal which is a ground so outdated it's embarrassing. Their biggest positive is the size of the city.

If Leigh or Featherstone are selected then it looks embarrassing because not only is it ridiculous to claim that these two sides could increase the commercial value of the competition (when it's viewed that Toronto didn't) but in terms of 'crowded' markets these clubs are literally competing for fans in the same postcodes are other Super League sides. There's no growth to be gained from either of these clubs being selected. That's not to say that they aren't well run clubs. It's not to say they aren't better than clubs already in Super League. It's just that with the commercial aspect being a big part of the criteria it's hard to see how they tick the boxes. They do, however, have a track record of being consistently competitive and probably have the best claims from a purely playing perspective.

If York get selected then it would be a brave move. There's an argument that it could indeed increase the commercial value of the competition. They are well run, have a nice new stadium. The problem is their selection would be ridiculous from a performance point of view. Not only do they have probably the weakest squad of the potential candidates but they also don't have any real consistent history of strong performances in the Championship. I'd love York to be selected, but the long term value of the decision would seem to be minimal as they look the least likely to compete so the most likely to be gone again in a few years.

London's bid would probably be heavily weighted towards their 'potential' but it seems that's all they'll ever be. The catchment area is obviously huge but the crowds are poor, facilities and ground pretty poor. They've been fairly competitive on the field though. With London though it's always been a case of think of what they could be while ignoring what they have been for decades.

Toulouse could probably put together a pretty strong bid on all fronts. However, the Super League representatives will almost certainly do what Elstone wants, so there's little hope of them securing any votes from them, so it's almost pointless to consider them.

Ultimately I can't imagine a scenario where the Super League and RFL representatives don't all vote as groups. It seems likely that the RFL would want Bradford because of their vested interests, and the Super League representatives will presumably be forced to watch a 'Bullmania' nostalgia montage Clockwork Orange style beforehand by Robert Elstone. The deciding vote in the case of a tied decision goes to a Leeds fan, which gives an obvious advantage to Bradford or Featherstone in that scenario.

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Blind side johnny said:

Maybe if we just got rid of P&R that issue would be solved?

And spoil the ambitions of at least half a dozen teams to appease one? Supposing t'other French outfit doesn't get the nod on Monday I suppose a slight rule change in their favour could take place.

Have you no ambition for your team Johnny?

[super major]

So glad it's not my call, let em all in

[The Phantom Horseman]

It's fascinating that we have a 30-page thread about the outcome of a major RL "event", yet no bookmakers are betting on the outcome.

Of course the reasons why they wouldn't  bet on the outcome are obvious, but I think it would be fascinating to see how they would actually bet on it. I've seen people on here or other social meida platforms absolutely adamant that they KNOW which team it's going to be for at least five of the six applicants, it could have been a betting event to rival that of the US election!*

* currently £1,652,762,254 matched on the next president market on betfair, so maybe not...

 

[RigbyLuger]

The Bradford people want back don't exist.

[RobertAM]

With the WP out then logically the contender the Pack beat in the MPG should be offered the place..hello Fev! (Remember they did beat Toulouse in a hard campaign) but given the Machiavellian machinations of Elstoned we are given this contrived decision where the weighting is not disclosed. It's just typical of the way this game is run - like a banana republic.

[Smudger06]

9 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

It's fascinating that we have a 30-page thread about the outcome of a major RL "event", yet no bookmakers are betting on the outcome.

Of course the reasons why they wouldn't  bet on the outcome are obvious, but I think it would be fascinating to see how they would actually bet on it. I've seen people on here or other social meida platforms absolutely adamant that they KNOW which team it's going to be for at least five of the six applicants, it could have been a betting event to rival that of the US election!*

* currently £1,652,762,254 matched on the next president market on betfair, so maybe not...

 

Yeah I had a look last night to see if bookies were running a book on this, found it strange they weren't. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

1 hour ago, Phil said:

They still score 0/100 on an Experian check and show a negative net worth of £850,000

I’ve no particular axe to grind but on that basis alone they surely can’t be considered 

Plus they've currently got no approved ground for 2021 (permission to play at Dewsbury was granted for one season only and the tart up of Odsal is still in the planning stage) and one of the most important managerial positions in the club is occupied by the chairman of another club (from the same division) on a temporary basis under a special grant of dispensation from the RFL.....

Absolute shoe in.

[The Phantom Horseman]

4 minutes ago, Smudger06 said:

Yeah I had a look last night to see if bookies were running a book on this, found it strange they weren't. 

The ramifications of any market move would lead to lots of pointing fingers, it would only have worked as a novelty, £10 max bet market.

Leaving aside those who "KNOW" who the chosen team will be, this would be a fiendishly difficult market to price up.

[sentoffagain2]

15 minutes ago, RobertAM said:

With the WP out then logically the contender the Pack beat in the MPG should be offered the place..hello Fev! (Remember they did beat Toulouse in a hard campaign) but given the Machiavellian machinations of Elstoned we are given this contrived decision where the weighting is not disclosed. It's just typical of the way this game is run - like a banana republic.

  FEV first team to win in Toronto against Wolfpack.And beaten finalists last season having beaten Leigh and Toulouse in the play offs.No money problems and a tidy ground with capacity of about 9000.Easy choice then it must be Bradford.

[Click]

3 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Ok, London is hardly a RL area but they’ve been around 40 years and are an established club. Picking London is hardly expanding into a new area, it would merely be farming the same salted earth.

London have done extremely well in establishing itself in terms of its junior development - but it is just 1 club in a city of 7+ million.

If you think London is just the same salted earth, then I am not sure what to say - I would say most youth in London have zero idea what RL actually is.

Money invested into London schools to grow the game and get more involvement at all levels is only a benefit, it hasn't been utilised anywhere near enough.

[GUBRATS]

1 hour ago, EagleEyePie said:

In fairness to Bradford they will surely be able to put in one of the strongest bids based on the criteria. It's just that the criteria seems to be more than just a little bit contrived to make it so that Bradford could apply (since when has top 6 ever been a relevant finish in the Championship? No insolvency event since Jan 2018? Only going back 3 years for insolvency events is embarrassing).

It's also the report that Elstone commissioned into Toronto that makes the whole process come across as farcical. Particularly when that report focused on the 'crowded' market in Toronto and the lack of commercial value of the club. If those points are so crucial then they are a negative against pretty much every club applying.

If Bradford are selected then it looks embarrassing because not only do they have a history of financial instability but it's also a huge conflict of interest with the RFL owning the lease to Odsal and so having a vested interest in bringing Super League rugby back to the ground. They also don't really stack up in terms of being competitive on the field over the last few years. Add to that the fact that they will presumably play at Odsal which is a ground so outdated it's embarrassing. Their biggest positive is the size of the city.

If Leigh or Featherstone are selected then it looks embarrassing because not only is it ridiculous to claim that these two sides could increase the commercial value of the competition (when it's viewed that Toronto didn't) but in terms of 'crowded' markets these clubs are literally competing for fans in the same postcodes are other Super League sides. There's no growth to be gained from either of these clubs being selected. That's not to say that they aren't well run clubs. It's not to say they aren't better than clubs already in Super League. It's just that with the commercial aspect being a big part of the criteria it's hard to see how they tick the boxes. They do, however, have a track record of being consistently competitive and probably have the best claims from a purely playing perspective.

If York get selected then it would be a brave move. There's an argument that it could indeed increase the commercial value of the competition. They are well run, have a nice new stadium. The problem is their selection would be ridiculous from a performance point of view. Not only do they have probably the weakest squad of the potential candidates but they also don't have any real consistent history of strong performances in the Championship. I'd love York to be selected, but the long term value of the decision would seem to be minimal as they look the least likely to compete so the most likely to be gone again in a few years.

London's bid would probably be heavily weighted towards their 'potential' but it seems that's all they'll ever be. The catchment area is obviously huge but the crowds are poor, facilities and ground pretty poor. They've been fairly competitive on the field though. With London though it's always been a case of think of what they could be while ignoring what they have been for decades.

Toulouse could probably put together a pretty strong bid on all fronts. However, the Super League representatives will almost certainly do what Elstone wants, so there's little hope of them securing any votes from them, so it's almost pointless to consider them.

Ultimately I can't imagine a scenario where the Super League and RFL representatives don't all vote as groups. It seems likely that the RFL would want Bradford because of their vested interests, and the Super League representatives will presumably be forced to watch a 'Bullmania' nostalgia montage Clockwork Orange style beforehand by Robert Elstone. The deciding vote in the case of a tied decision goes to a Leeds fan, which gives an obvious advantage to Bradford or Featherstone in that scenario.

Good post 

[Oxford]

2 hours ago, PEANUT HEAD said:

The only thing that would be bent and wrong is the bulls being fast tracked back into SL above all the other teams. 

No more than if anyone else was instead.

 

[Optimist]

2 hours ago, Phil said:

They still score 0/100 on an Experian check and show a negative net worth of £850,000

I’ve no particular axe to grind but on that basis alone they surely can’t be considered 

You seem to forget, Odsal Stadium is iconic, that’s why the RFL secretly bought the Odsal lease,  as it turned out, the deal came to light when the RFL lost a small fortune by paying over the odds for the lease. I believe there are too many coincidences linking BBs to the RFL, for the Bulls not to be the 12th team. Don’t forget, it’s now being reported, the RFL are helping to fund, the Odsal refurbishment, using funds that belong to RFL member clubs.