RigbyLuger Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 2 hours ago, meast said: But according to many , Bradford "bring" more to the game than many other clubs and are always often mentioned when a "who should be in super league" thread comes up every few months, based on the fact they had a 10 year spell of success and decent crowds on the back of that some 2 decades ago! Apart from a successful history, there's nothing to Bradford should be near SL, Hunslet have a decent history too and once attracted big crowds, we wouldn't suggest they should be dining at the top table though would we? If Super League had been created in 1986, would Wakefield and Huddersfield have been in because they were great twenty years before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Horseman Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 21 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said: I reckon you're itching to give it a go (be surprised if you hadn't already TBH) and would make a pretty good stab at it. I honestly wouldn't have a clue. Who knows which of the criteria will be given most weight, and which panel members will have the greatest influence? No outcome tomorrow would surprise me all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blues Ox Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Ive said it many times before, most SL clubs are just championship clubs given the extra funding from the TV deal. 10-15 years ago there really were only 1 or 2 clubs in the Championship that could realistically be able to step up to SL where as now it looks like theres about 5 or 6 along with a couple more that if they were given that funding would make a fist of SL. If anything the gap should hve become wider given the benefits but nothing has really changed. Letting the Sl clubs run the show has only served to weaken the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gooleboy Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Eddie said: I imagine Huddersfield will be sold out for their end of season clash with Hull KR to see who finishes 10th. It will be all ticket, they will be travelling in their droves to see the spectacle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Rover Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Do relegation battles really excite fans? The fans of the teams involved don’t enjoy them but do neutral fans or is there a car crash element that you cant help but watch to see who goes down? I doubt most neutral fans were watching last year to see who stayed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Rover Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Bradford shouldn’t be anywhere near Super League after everything that has gone on with them. There are some strong bids but my preference would be Toulouse because I am asking myself what message will Super League be sending if it replaces a world famous city like Toronto with yet another north of England based team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 29 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said: Do relegation battles really excite fans? The fans of the teams involved don’t enjoy them but do neutral fans or is there a car crash element that you cant help but watch to see who goes down? I doubt most neutral fans were watching last year to see who stayed up. I found last year I was interested purely because it was seeing if London could make "the great escape" as they hit form against the other sides around them in 4 pointers. Watching Wakefield, Huddersfield, Hull KR and indeed my own team play dire safety first rugby poorly every week had literally zero value to me once we were safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 37 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said: Do relegation battles really excite fans? The fans of the teams involved don’t enjoy them but do neutral fans or is there a car crash element that you cant help but watch to see who goes down? I doubt most neutral fans were watching last year to see who stayed up. Do promotion battles excite fans ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hall Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 2 hours ago, RigbyLuger said: If Super League had been created in 1986, would Wakefield and Huddersfield have been in because they were great twenty years before? Huddersfield got into Super League mainly because the game was founded in a hotel there in 1895. http://www.alldesignandprint.co.uk Printing & Graphic Design with Nationwide Service Programmes | Leaflets | Cards | Banners & Flags | Letterheads | Tickets | Magazines | Folders | Brand Identity plus much more Official Matchday Programme Print & Design Partner to York City Knights, Heworth ARLFC, York Acorn RLFC & Hunslet RLFC Official Player Sponsor of Marcus Stock for the 2020 Season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 6 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Big statement Tex, especially so in the week that one of our biggest clubs being Wigan has published it's financial return and disclosed it is again in the red, with the shortfall being made up by the owner. Exactly, chances are we are going to get a few more of these announcements in the coming months, it would be wrong to say that a prospective SL applicant can’t be reliant on an owner when obviously so many of the existing SL clubs already are just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 24 minutes ago, Liverpool Rover said: Bradford shouldn’t be anywhere near Super League after everything that has gone on with them. There are some strong bids but my preference would be Toulouse because I am asking myself what message will Super League be sending if it replaces a world famous city like Toronto with yet another north of England based team? A world famous city that couldn't put together a viable financial package to be reinstated , much like Bradford really Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Oldbear said: Exactly, chances are we are going to get a few more of these announcements in the coming months, it would be wrong to say that a prospective SL applicant can’t be reliant on an owner when obviously so many of the existing SL clubs already are just that. As were Toronto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: Do promotion battles excite fans ? Absolutely. So the decision has to be made whether those benefits outweigh the other costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 4 hours ago, meast said: But according to many , Bradford "bring" more to the game than many other clubs and are always often mentioned when a "who should be in super league" thread comes up every few months, based on the fact they had a 10 year spell of success and decent crowds on the back of that some 2 decades ago! This point is often ignored, the reality is that outside the first 10 years of SL Bradfords record, both from a success or crowd point of view, is not that remarkable. That 10 year period did see huge crowds and incredible success, but the success was paid for with money the club did not have and crowds were fuelled by a combination of a great game day experience, low ticket prices and a winning team, all of which again was achieved by spending money the club did not have. The 2021 version of the Bulls would struggle to get anywhere those heights, given that the club is financially hamstrung and on the field is unlikely to be any better than a relegation candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldbear Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: As were Toronto As is actually the majority of the league if we want to be truly honest. It’s wrong for people to dismiss the likes of London & Leigh for their reliance on Messrs Hughes and Beaumont when even the mighty Wigan has also such an owner reliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Phantom Horseman Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said: Ive said it many times before, most SL clubs are just championship clubs given the extra funding from the TV deal. 10-15 years ago there really were only 1 or 2 clubs in the Championship that could realistically be able to step up to SL where as now it looks like theres about 5 or 6 along with a couple more that if they were given that funding would make a fist of SL. If anything the gap should hve become wider given the benefits but nothing has really changed. Letting the Sl clubs run the show has only served to weaken the game. Maybe you could debate the word "most" (though even that is probably correct), but everyone who has followed both SL and Championship rugby over the years knows all of the above to be true. If you added the 11 current SL clubs to the 6 applicants for the 12th place and judged all those applications on their merits applying the criteria cited, you'd be looking at a lot more than one new arrival in SL and several departures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 13 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said: Maybe you could debate the word "most" (though even that is probably correct), but everyone who has followed both SL and Championship rugby over the years knows all of the above to be true. If you added the 11 current SL clubs to the 6 applicants for the 12th place and judged all those applications on their merits applying the criteria cited, you'd be looking at a lot more than one new arrival in SL and several departures. There are 7 solid Super League clubs who on an application system would be definitely in, 3 Lancashire, 3 Yorkshire and Catalans. Huddersfield I genuinely think have kicked on from the side of 15 years ago. Then you have the other 4 Super League clubs who fall into the category you describe to varying extents. There are 2 more who would be much less confident, but probably in for slightly different reasons and incumbency, Salford and KR. Then you have Wakefield and Cas, who by most metrics fall behind several Championship clubs, though facilities stand out. I've also pointed out previously that all that separates Widnes, Wakefield, Bradford, Castleford, Leigh, KR, York, Salford, London etc as clubs is the 1.8 or so million central funding each year. Hence why most of them have spent a considerable part of the last 30 years somewhere between the bottom of the top flight to the top of the second division (a few notable anomalies aside). This is why I find the decision by those super league clubs to give £1 million funding instead of the full amount so crude - its obvious what they are trying to guarantee for next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Liverpool Rover said: Do relegation battles really excite fans? The fans of the teams involved don’t enjoy them but do neutral fans or is there a car crash element that you cant help but watch to see who goes down? I doubt most neutral fans were watching last year to see who stayed up. It's a good question. For me yes. I live in the Wakefoeld area and don't support them. However, I do go if they are in relegation trouble to give my support. I have had one or too relegation battles with Batley, though fortunately we have never been relegated from the championship. These are more intense, and raise interest amongst locals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Tommygilf said: Absolutely. So the decision has to be made whether those benefits outweigh the other costs. Do they? in any great numbers? In financially significant numbers? https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2019/09/historical-elite-level-attendance_23.html According to this the difference between a good fev side and rubbish one is about 600. A decent amount for their small attendances but negligible in the real scheme of things. Interesting that, if those figures are correct, and they are often referenced on this board. Fev under franchising in 2012, better attendances than a poor season in the championship like 2018. The simple fact is that promotion and relegation play little part in who attends or views what games. The value in RL and the value especially in the lower leagues isnt in jeopardy. Featherstone v Sheffield, 2012. Championship grand final. 6409. Leigh v Les Catalans 2017 million pound game. 6888. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 8 hours ago, Phil said: Which is why p & r is not in the long term interest of the game Every team is trying to win and will play its best players, P&R or not. With no P&R you may have some young players getting a couple of games at the end of the season where they might not have otherwise but ultimately teams play their best teams. Wigan are very rarely in a relegation scrap and bring plenty of young players through. The notion that P&R holds back young players is a myth. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said: Big statement Tex, especially so in the week that one of our biggest clubs being Wigan has published it's financial return and disclosed it is again in the red, with the shortfall being made up by the owner. Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Just now, Tex Evans Thigh said: Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club. Yes I agree with your comparisons on the two clubs, and especially Wigan surviving but at what level without a backer such as Mr Leneghan, realistically what would be the level of many clubs without owner dependency. Those clubs in SL who have been surviving without the big money men and being used to cutting their cloth to suit would probably do much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oxford Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 Being factional seems to be all the rage, that'll be with it being so positive, productive and inspiring as a tool. 2 warning points Non-Political Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Evans Thigh Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: Yes I agree with your comparisons on the two clubs, and especially Wigan surviving but at what level without a backer such as Mr Leneghan, realistically what would be the level of many clubs without owner dependency. Those clubs in SL who have been surviving without the big money men and being used to cutting their cloth to suit would probably do much better. It’s dangerous having teams who would instantly cease to exist if an owner pulled money out. There’s nothing wrong with owners supplementing clubs but clubs that are almost completely owned reliant are a huge risk. Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid." MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions " Discounts available for forum members contact me for details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Future is League Posted December 13, 2020 Share Posted December 13, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said: Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club. How many clubs would survive without the owners putting in money. How would Warrington, Saints, Hull FC , Hull KR, Huddersfield survive without wealthy owners at Super League level, and lets not forget about clubs in the championship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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