Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

[Scotchy1]

2 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Elite 

Thank you. 

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

That adding another club in the heartlands doesnt expand the player pool isnt a bad faith argument. 

OK you point me to post on TWP thread where you question where the new players come from, and I'll gladly take back my comment that you are being hypocritical. Until then I'm not going to engage because I've had my fill off circular debates with you for now. 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

OK you point me to post on TWP thread where you question where the new players come from, and I'll gladly take back my comment that you are being hypocritical. Until then I'm not going to engage because I've had my fill off circular debates with you for now. 

It has never been my argument that club = player pool. Ive always said that it was a far more complex question than that.

It isnt my argument that Leigh shouldnt be allowed in SL because Wigan already develop the players from that area. It was others, often your fellow leythers, argument that Toronto shouldnt be in SL until they develop players, but dont apply that standard to Leigh. 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

19 minutes ago, Damien said:

As much as we have been told for years that we shouldn't dismiss the views of fans from lower league heartland clubs we also shouldn't dismiss what people are saying when they are disillusioned with the game in this country and bored of the managed decline and status quo. There are certainly an ever increasing number of fans that feel the way Scotchy does. Social media and this website tells us that, never mind anecdotal evidence from friends and family. I would firmly put myself in that boat too.

It's a few on here who are nowhere near representative of the vast majority who watch the game. Most 'fans' in the real world wouldn't give a hoot whether their team were playing Leigh or Toulouse. 

[LeytherRob]

Just now, Scotchy1 said:

It has never been my argument that club = player pool. Ive always said that it was a far more complex question than that.

It isnt my argument that Leigh shouldnt be allowed in SL because Wigan already develop the players from that area. It was others, often your fellow leythers, argument that Toronto shouldnt be in SL until they develop players, but dont apply that standard to Leigh. 

Pointing out hypocrisy is fine, spending an additional 5 pages of thread debating about Leighs youth system is engaging in that very same hypocrisy, much like some of the arguements floating around on this thread.

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

Pointing out hypocrisy is fine, spending an additional 5 pages of thread debating about Leighs youth system is engaging in that very same hypocrisy, much like some of the arguements floating around on this thread.

It was two posts. 

But also that line of thinking doesnt make sense. 

[Harry Stottle]

47 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Quite, but even then it still makes sense to look beyond yours (and therefore their) doorstep. Cumbria, Wales, the North East etc. It needs a bit of lateral thinking otherwise the academy will just be worse by definition 

I seem to recall that when the cap was mooted it said it would share out the available talent and no club would have the monopoly of herding all the best player's, perhaps if demarcation areas were awarded to all clubs that they were only allowed to fish in certain areas for junior talent how would that be received? If as some people consider all clubs should have academies there would not be enough lads to go round of the required talent. 

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

It's a few on here who are nowhere near representative of the vast majority who watch the game. Most 'fans' in the real world wouldn't give a hoot whether their team were playing Leigh or Toulouse. 

It really isn't but we'll agree to disagree. Dismissing those concerns, as you have, is precisely why their is so much apathy and why the game is in a downward spiral based on just about any measure.

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

It's a few on here who are nowhere near representative of the vast majority who watch the game. Most 'fans' in the real world wouldn't give a hoot whether their team were playing Leigh or Toulouse. 

Maybe that is the case. 

But the vast vast vast majority of people arent fans of the game and fewer and fewer people are fans of the game.
 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I seem to recall that when the cap was mooted it said it would share out the available talent and no club would have the monopoly of herding all the best player's, perhaps if demarcation areas were awarded to all clubs that they were only allowed to fish in certain areas for junior talent how would that be received? If as some people consider all clubs should have academies there would not be enough lads to go round of the required talent. 

Perhaps if we give Leigh a 12 point head start they might stay up this time? 

At some point, at the big boys table, you have to act like a big boy. 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

It really isn't but we'll agree to disagree. Dismissing those concerns, as you have, is precisely why their is so much apathy and why the game is in a downward spiral based on just about any measure.

There is an element that the game has listened to its hardened fanbase created a game that appeals to that hardened fan base, and then wondered why everyone else has wandered off to do something else. 

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Scotchy1 said:

Maybe that is the case. 

But the vast vast vast majority of people arent fans of the game and fewer and fewer people are fans of the game.
 

Does anybody actually have the year on year attendance and/or viewership figures for the game to actually do a proper comparison? I keep saying anecdotal evidence saying less fans etc but I've never seen anything actually backing it up.

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

Does anybody actually have the year on year attendance and/or viewership figures for the game to actually do a proper comparison? I keep saying anecdotal evidence saying less fans etc but I've never seen anything actually backing it up.

2012 we had an average of 10'151 over 14 clubs, in 2019 we had an average of 8441 over 12 teams in SL.

Some will point to growth in the championship but that has been limited and is largely due to the change in teams involved such as the addition of bradford who get significantly higher than average crowds in the championship, but those crowds arent an improvement but a significant fall of somewhere  around 6-8k

Fev for instance (according to this https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2019/09/historical-elite-level-attendance_23.html) had an average of 2282 in 2012 and an average of 2304 in 2019. 

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

2012 we had an average of 10'151 over 14 clubs, in 2019 we had an average of 8441 over 12 teams in SL.

Some will point to growth in the championship but that has been limited and is largely due to the change in teams involved such as the addition of bradford who get significantly higher than average crowds in the championship, but those crowds arent an improvement but a significant fall of somewhere  around 6-8k

Fev for instance (according to this https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2019/09/historical-elite-level-attendance_23.html) had an average of 2282 in 2012 and an average of 2304 in 2019. 

Can you point to where you are getting the overall data from so I can take a look? Maybe you are right, but you're also obviously going to cherry pick the data that suits your argument.

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Can you point to where you are getting the overall data from so I can take a look? Maybe you are right, but you're also obviously going to cherry pick the data that suits your argument.

There have been plenty of threads on here that have shown the decline. I know Wigan's have declined by about 5,000 since 2011.

[iangidds]

33 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

It's a few on here who are nowhere near representative of the vast majority who watch the game. Most 'fans' in the real world wouldn't give a hoot whether their team were playing Leigh or Toulouse. 

I would rather travel to Toulouse than leigh and i suspect more peoples tv eyes would be drawn to watching Tolouse not to mention sponsors. Without wishing to sound rude about Leigh I dont really remember them offering anything to the top flight game in the 37 years ive been following the sport! Maybe we should be able to look up rather than down because as a sport we have been on the way down for a long time.

[iangidds]

29 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

There is an element that the game has listened to its hardened fanbase created a game that appeals to that hardened fan base, and then wondered why everyone else has wandered off to do something else. 

Perfect

[binosh]

Out of Wigan's latest batch of 17 talented youngsters signed to their scholarship 7 or 41% were from Leigh Community clubs that have an affiliation with Leigh Centurions.

Until the RFL grant us a Cat 1 academy licence or we have a sustained period in SL we will continue to lose them to Wigan, Saints, Warrington & Widnes.

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2020/10/18/2021-scholars-announced/

[Hela Wigmen]

3 minutes ago, binosh said:

Out of Wigan's latest batch of 17 talented youngsters signed to their scholarship 7 or 41% were from Leigh Community clubs that have an affiliation with Leigh Centurions.

Until the RFL grant us a Cat 1 academy licence or we have a sustained period in SL we will continue to lose them to Wigan, Saints, Warrington & Widnes.

https://wiganwarriors.com/blog/2020/10/18/2021-scholars-announced/

Why would the RFL grant you a Category 1 Academy without, y’know, having a Category 1 Academy in terms of facilities, coaching etc? 

[binosh]

Just now, Hela Wigmen said:

Why would the RFL grant you a Category 1 Academy without, y’know, having a Category 1 Academy in terms of facilities, coaching etc? 

We applied was declined, end of story.

Kind of missed the point though didn't you?

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

There have been plenty of threads on here that have shown the decline. I know Wigan's have declined by about 5,000 since 2011.

The threads are difficult to navigate on here at the best of times with the derailment that goes on so was hoping for some actual source data. Best I could find was a Total RL article published in April this year by Stephen Ibbetson which shows more of a mixed bag than anything:

Cas 2010 - 6,616/2019 - 7,253

Cats 2010 - 6,806/2019 - 10,259

Hudds 2010 - 7,280/2019 - 5,226

Hull FC 2010 - 14,014/2019 - 11,479

Hull KR 2010 - 8,207/2019 - 8,220

Leeds 2010 - 15,208/2019 - 12,727

Salford 2010 - 4,166/2019 - 3,746

St Helens 2010 - 11,571/2019 - 11,910

Wakefield 2010 - 5,983/2019 - 5,468

Warrington 2010 - 10,738/2019 - 10,648

Wigan 2010 - 15,181/ 2019 - 11,432

Source - https://www.totalrl.com/up-or-down-an-in-depth-club-by-club-look-at-attendances-over-the-past-decade/

The article does also provide some interesting context into the 2012 season Scotchy held up, such as an anomalous spike in St Helens attendances due to first season at the new stadium, along with a large spike at Wakefield due to new ownership and 'generous prices'. Leeds looks fairly stable until a sharp drop when the work on headingly began, the only real concerns for me in that data are Wigan who do seem to be losing fans at a worrying rate and Huddersfield. It would be even more helpful to actually see game wide attendances to see a fuller picture than just Featherstone.

[Tommygilf]

5 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I seem to recall that when the cap was mooted it said it would share out the available talent and no club would have the monopoly of herding all the best player's, perhaps if demarcation areas were awarded to all clubs that they were only allowed to fish in certain areas for junior talent how would that be received? If as some people consider all clubs should have academies there would not be enough lads to go round of the required talent. 

I don't think demarcation areas would work for a couple of reasons. Firstly I'm fairly sure some restriction of trade law would be being contravened.

Secondly and more importantly, they'd be so small they're impossible to make work and ultimately decimate some clubs, especially when you have full time and semi professional teams next to eachother. Take Leigh for example, if you told all the kids at Leigh East that they wouldn't be allowed to go to the academy at Wigan or Saints because they had to play for a Wigan or Saints club to do that, how many at age 13/14/15 would decide to up sticks and move clubs? Loads. They already do in other areas where there are perceived more "fashionable" junior clubs with a higher chance of getting into a scholarship side. That's before you even get to the problem that some places would only have 3 junior teams to pick from anyhow. So ultimately Wigan, Saints and Leeds still get all the best juniors but they're even closer to them now than before.

Such localised demarcation works in an amateur set up, but with professionalism its incompatible. Players, their parents and clubs are far more savvy and have less loyalty to the team they support even.

Like I said to others, if your not the top dog in your region you need to think a bit more laterally about junior recruitment. For some that might be as simple as paying juniors far more to come. Others might establish a dedicated reserve team in the lower divisions. Others could look at different areas and sources of players, Rugby union has 2 professional teams north of Leicester and Yorkshire win the amateurs county cup loads so its not even like you're having to look at Wales etc.

[Hela Wigmen]

2 minutes ago, binosh said:

We applied was declined, end of story.

Kind of missed the point though didn't you?

No, I didn’t. You get categorised based on a series of factors. Leigh didn’t reach Category 1 level and have since chosen not to have an Academy at all. They can’t get a Category 1 rating without being up to the standard of a Category 1 Academy. 

[LeytherRob]

3 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

No, I didn’t. You get categorised based on a series of factors. Leigh didn’t reach Category 1 level and have since chosen not to have an Academy at all. They can’t get a Category 1 rating without being up to the standard of a Category 1 Academy. 

We have a cat 3 academy, as has been pointed out several times on this and other threads.

[PEANUT HEAD]

16 hours ago, Damien said:

To be honest that Leigh team listed on the previous page looks far weaker than Toronto's. Yes there is a large Toronto element but its missing some of the better players. 

It's not how many big names you have,  it's how you gel as a team.