Jump to content

Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)


Col81
 Share

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

Ive said it many times before, most SL clubs are just championship clubs given the extra funding from the TV deal. 10-15 years ago there really were only 1 or 2 clubs in the Championship that could realistically be able to step up to SL where as now it looks like theres about 5 or 6 along with a couple more that if they were given that funding would make a fist of SL. If anything the gap should hve become wider given the benefits but nothing has really changed. Letting the Sl clubs run the show has only served to weaken the game.

Maybe you could debate the word "most" (though even that is probably correct), but everyone who has followed both SL and Championship rugby over the years knows all of the above to be true.

If you added the 11 current SL clubs to the 6 applicants for the 12th place and judged all those applications on their merits applying the criteria cited, you'd be looking at a lot more than one new arrival in SL and several departures.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites


13 minutes ago, The Phantom Horseman said:

Maybe you could debate the word "most" (though even that is probably correct), but everyone who has followed both SL and Championship rugby over the years knows all of the above to be true.

If you added the 11 current SL clubs to the 6 applicants for the 12th place and judged all those applications on their merits applying the criteria cited, you'd be looking at a lot more than one new arrival in SL and several departures.

There are 7 solid Super League clubs who on an application system would be definitely in, 3 Lancashire, 3 Yorkshire and Catalans. Huddersfield I genuinely think have kicked on from the side of 15 years ago.

Then you have the other 4 Super League clubs who fall into the category you describe to varying extents.

There are 2 more who would be much less confident, but probably in for slightly different reasons and incumbency, Salford and KR. Then you have Wakefield and Cas, who by most metrics fall behind several Championship clubs, though facilities stand out.

I've also pointed out previously that all that separates Widnes, Wakefield, Bradford, Castleford, Leigh, KR, York, Salford, London etc as clubs is the 1.8 or so million central funding each year. Hence why most of them have spent a considerable part of the last 30 years somewhere between the bottom of the top flight to the top of the second division (a few notable anomalies aside). This is why I find the decision by those super league clubs to give £1 million funding instead of the full amount so crude - its obvious what they are trying to guarantee for next year.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Liverpool Rover said:

Do relegation battles really excite fans? The fans of the teams involved don’t enjoy them but do neutral fans or is there a car crash element that you cant help but watch to see who goes down? I doubt most neutral fans were watching last year to see who stayed up.

It's a good question.

For me yes. I live in the Wakefoeld area and don't support them. However, I do go if they are in relegation trouble to give my support. 

I have had one or too relegation battles with Batley, though fortunately we have never been relegated  from the championship.

These are more intense, and raise interest amongst locals. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely.

So the decision has to be made whether those benefits outweigh the other costs.

Do they? in any great numbers? In financially significant numbers?
 

https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2019/09/historical-elite-level-attendance_23.html

According to this the difference between a good fev side and rubbish one is about 600. A decent amount for their small attendances but negligible in the real scheme of things. 

Interesting that, if those figures are correct, and they are often referenced on this board. Fev under franchising in 2012, better attendances than a poor season in the championship like 2018.

The simple fact is that promotion and relegation play little part in who attends or views what games. The value in RL and the value especially in the lower leagues isnt in jeopardy. 

Featherstone v Sheffield, 2012. Championship grand final. 6409.

Leigh v Les Catalans 2017 million pound game. 6888. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Phil said:

Which is why p & r is not in the long term interest of the game 

Every team is trying to win and will play its best players, P&R or not. With no P&R you may have some young players getting a couple of games at the end of the season where they might not have otherwise but ultimately teams play their best teams. Wigan are very rarely in a relegation scrap and bring plenty of young players through. The notion that P&R holds back young players is a myth.

  • Like 3

Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney

fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid."

3736-mipm.gif

MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions "

Discounts available for forum members contact me for details

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Big statement Tex, especially so in the week that one of our biggest clubs being Wigan has published it's financial return and disclosed it is again in the red, with the shortfall being made up by the owner.

Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club.

Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney

fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid."

3736-mipm.gif

MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions "

Discounts available for forum members contact me for details

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club.

Yes I agree with your comparisons on the two clubs, and especially Wigan surviving but at what level without a backer such as Mr Leneghan, realistically what would be the level of many clubs without owner dependency. Those clubs in SL who have been surviving without the big money men and being used to cutting their cloth to suit would probably do much better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Yes I agree with your comparisons on the two clubs, and especially Wigan surviving but at what level without a backer such as Mr Leneghan, realistically what would be the level of many clubs without owner dependency. Those clubs in SL who have been surviving without the big money men and being used to cutting their cloth to suit would probably do much better.

It’s dangerous having teams who would instantly cease to exist if an owner pulled money out. There’s nothing wrong with owners supplementing clubs but clubs that are almost completely owned reliant are a huge risk. 

Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney

fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid."

3736-mipm.gif

MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions "

Discounts available for forum members contact me for details

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Wigan would survive and be a competitive SL team without an owner pumping money in, London would be a bottom end League 1 club.

How many clubs would survive without the owners putting in money.

How would Warrington, Saints, Hull FC , Hull KR, Huddersfield survive without wealthy owners at Super League level, and lets not forget about clubs in the championship

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Scotchy1 said:

Do they? in any great numbers? In financially significant numbers?
 

https://rugbyl.blogspot.com/2019/09/historical-elite-level-attendance_23.html

According to this the difference between a good fev side and rubbish one is about 600. A decent amount for their small attendances but negligible in the real scheme of things. 

Interesting that, if those figures are correct, and they are often referenced on this board. Fev under franchising in 2012, better attendances than a poor season in the championship like 2018.

The simple fact is that promotion and relegation play little part in who attends or views what games. The value in RL and the value especially in the lower leagues isnt in jeopardy. 

Featherstone v Sheffield, 2012. Championship grand final. 6409.

Leigh v Les Catalans 2017 million pound game. 6888. 

You do like to site examples with teams that have very few travelling fans, again as an observation I was at the Leigh v Catalan game it was 99.9999 per cent Leigh fans in attendance.

Which I was totally surprised with considering all the support Catalan were recieving on these pages.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

Every team is trying to win and will play its best players, P&R or not. With no P&R you may have some young players getting a couple of games at the end of the season where they might not have otherwise but ultimately teams play their best teams. Wigan are very rarely in a relegation scrap and bring plenty of young players through. The notion that P&R holds back young players is a myth.

Haha. London would have been relegated long before the end of the season if clubs played their best teams

  • Haha 1

sometimes you have to take a step backwards to move forward

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You do like to site examples with teams that have very few travelling fans, again as an observation I was at the Leigh v Catalan game it was 99.9999 per cent Leigh fans in attendance.

Which I was totally surprised with considering all the support Catalan were recieving on these pages.

I also seem to remember it was raining armageddon style for a few hours before the match, that could have put off quite a few fans too.

  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good luck to those involved tomorrow. I look forward to the further episodes of Groundhog Day on TotalRL Forums where we discuss licensing, promotion and relegation, Leigh Centurions, Derek Beaumont, Scotchy’s Magic Calculator “facts”, who shouldn’t be in Super League, what Super League grounds need tearing to the ground and more self interest from every level of the game from the top to the Internet dwellers on here. Can it just be March already so we can talk about something actually meaningful and interesting? 

 

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Besides being a farce in promoting them, it would also be very dangerous. Although they are capable of attracting huge support, both home and away, many of their fans appear to be the "only sing when they're winning" type, highlighted by their record low attendance of 324 when they went out of business in 1963, a fact that seems to have been brushed under the carpet. Are today's fans steadfast enough to stick with them through a season littered with heavy defeats? If not we could see a repeat of 1963 and 2017 with their third liquidation in post-war times. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fancied Toulouse's chances until I recently had pointed out to me that our sponsors Betfred wouldn't be very happy with another French club considering their government's opposition to gambling advertising and sponsorship in sport.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ckn locked this topic
1 hour ago, Steve Slater said:

Besides being a farce in promoting them, it would also be very dangerous. Although they are capable of attracting huge support, both home and away, many of their fans appear to be the "only sing when they're winning" type, highlighted by their record low attendance of 324 when they went out of business in 1963, a fact that seems to have been brushed under the carpet. Are today's fans steadfast enough to stick with them through a season littered with heavy defeats? If not we could see a repeat of 1963 and 2017 with their third liquidation in post-war times. 

Pretty much agree with a lot of this, the reality is that Bradfords recent boom period lasted just over 10 years, the first 10 of SL, when they won trophies, went to Wembley, won the WCC and had huge crowds, however some of this was built on Peter Deakin spotting a niche in the entertainment market that others were slower to react to, and this, plus the on field success was achieved by spending money the club did not have, hence the subsequent financial meltdowns. It is very dangerous when financially you need to win a trophy every year just to minimize losses, but that’s where Bradford very quickly found themselves.
 

Economically the world is now a different place, the effects of COVID will impact on people’s incomes and when money is tight it needs to be spent selectively, and I’m not sure that following a team that will be way out of its depth should it be promoted is going to be so attractive. For sure initial crowds will be strong, but a few 40+ point hammerings will test the patience of the most loyal.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Steve Slater said:

Besides being a farce in promoting them, it would also be very dangerous. Although they are capable of attracting huge support, both home and away, many of their fans appear to be the "only sing when they're winning" type, highlighted by their record low attendance of 324 when they went out of business in 1963, a fact that seems to have been brushed under the carpet. Are today's fans steadfast enough to stick with them through a season littered with heavy defeats? If not we could see a repeat of 1963 and 2017 with their third liquidation in post-war times. 

I think 1963 is way too far in the past to have any relevance today with regard to predicting attendances. 

Unfortunately most fans around in that era will not be alive anymore. The demographics have changed also. 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, The Future is League said:

How many clubs would survive without the owners putting in money.

How would Warrington, Saints, Hull FC , Hull KR, Huddersfield survive without wealthy owners at Super League level, and lets not forget about clubs in the championship

They would all survive just as they have before, they just wouldn’t be as good obviously. Just like Salford are doing with no rich owner and the lowest supporter base in SL

Formerly Alistair Boyd-Meaney

fifty thousand Poouunds from Keighley...weve had im gid."

3736-mipm.gif

MIPM Project Management and Business Solutions "

Discounts available for forum members contact me for details

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, RigbyLuger said:

I know, I should have quoted better. You're spot on.

Many praising York seem to have adopted forgotten they new club is about the same age of the latest incarnation of the Bulls too, just have better social media.

And a new ground.

Edited by iffleyox
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Steve Slater said:

highlighted by their record low attendance of 324 when they went out of business in 1963,

Just as it's a bit ridiculous to base the Bradford seeking promotion on the one from twenty years ago, it's a bit daft to judge today's Bradford fans on a match played 57 years ago.

  • Like 1

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Just as it's a bit ridiculous to base the Bradford seeking promotion on the one from twenty years ago, it's a bit daft to judge today's Bradford fans on a match played 57 years ago.

That 324 attendance wasnt just a one off in that era ,an era when attendencies in the sport were still quite healthy . Bradford throughout the history have reformed quite a number of times . A club from a large city having to become tenants at Dewsbury a so called smaller club in a smaller town with a decent stadium ,but Bradford have more right to play in SL because they Now have a " Lerger fan Base" than the other candidates? 

  • Like 1

 Soon we will be dancing the fandango
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • John Drake changed the title to Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)
  • ckn unlocked this topic
  • ckn locked this topic

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...