Super League Promotion (Merged Threads)

[LeytherRob]

2 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I stick by what i say. No category 1 academy = no Super League place. Forcing clubs who have Super League ambitions to run academies.

It's not about ambition though, it's about being told whether or not you can realise that ambition by the RFL.

[The Future is League]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

It's not about ambition though, it's about being told whether or not you can realise that ambition by the RFL.

If the RFL require higher standards to meet that ambition do something about it to meet them standards.

[LeytherRob]

Just now, The Future is League said:

If the RFL require higher standards to meet that ambition do something about it to meet them standards.

One of the criteria essentially boils down to being an established SL club. That's currently what we are trying to do. 

[sweaty craiq]

2 hours ago, Scotchy1 said:

Thank you. 

Got to keep you off the streets

[The Future is League]

4 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

One of the criteria essentially boils down to being an established SL club. That's currently what we are trying to do. 

Are Newcastle.,London Broncos, Widnes and Bradford classed as established Super League clubs then? 

[LeytherRob]

Just now, The Future is League said:

Are Newcastle.,London Broncos, Widnes and Bradford classed as established Super League clubs then? 

All but Newcastle were when the new grading system on academies was introduced. As for Newcastle, I'm not 100% on the details so would be happy to be corrected, but I assume they would've taken on what was the north east academy from when the RFL was actually funding the regional academies that competed vs super league clubs(Midlands was another one but that seems to have fallen away).

[sweaty craiq]

22 minutes ago, Hela Wigmen said:

Everyone can put building blocks in place to create a Tier One Academy. 

What are they, cant find on RFL site

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

11 minutes ago, The Future is League said:

I stick by what i say. No category 1 academy = no Super League place. Forcing clubs who have Super League ambitions to run academies.

On October 30th you said "In a nutshell. I'm finished with the game at all levels if TWP are rejected," 

As they didn't have an Academy surely you should have been championing their exclusion?

 

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

On October 30th you said "In a nutshell. I'm finished with the game at all levels if TWP are rejected," 

As they didn't have an Academy surely you should have been championing their exclusion?

 

Where is Scotchy when you need him to come point out all the bad faith arguments and hypocrisy?

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Where is Scotchy when you need him to come point out all the bad faith arguments and hypocrisy?

Your desperation to defend bad faith arguments is odd. But youre welcome to it.

[LeytherRob]

3 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

Your desperation to defend bad faith arguments is odd. But youre welcome to it.

I'm not defending them, nor did I ever engage in any that you described on the TWP thread, so maybe you are getting me mixed up. Just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it just like you.

[Scotchy1]

6 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

I'm not defending them, nor did I ever engage in any that you described on the TWP thread, so maybe you are getting me mixed up. Just pointing out hypocrisy when I see it just like you.

I didnt accuse you of it engaging in it. Just defending it for some reason. Im really not sure why you want to position yourself on that side of things

[The Future is League]

26 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

On October 30th you said "In a nutshell. I'm finished with the game at all levels if TWP are rejected," 

As they didn't have an Academy surely you should have been championing their exclusion?

 

Your stalking me a Les? My parents warned me about people like you

Remind me how long Leigh have had a Rugby League club? and they don't even have a category 1 academy. That's total embarrassment for a heartland club 

Remind me how long TWP had a Super League club before getting promoted by winning a final?, not gifted a place in Super League.

[Big Picture]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

To be fair spikes happen both ways. For example Catalans 2019 figure there is excessively high courtesy of a 30k+ high crowd in Barcelona. I don't even know if they got a 5 figure crowd other than that last season.

If we leave Catalans out for that reason and just look at the 11 English teams, the crowd totals declined from 98,964 (average 8,996.7) in 2010 to 88,109 (average 8,009.9) in 2019.  The decline is almost 1,000 per match.

[The Future is League]

6 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

If we leave Catalans out for that reason and just look at the 11 English teams, the crowd totals declined from 98,964 (average 8,996.7) in 2010 to 88,109 (average 8,009.9) in 2019.  The decline is almost 1,000 per match.

That's worrying, but not surprising.

Some out the box thinking will be needed IF crowds are allowed back for the 2021 season to stop the decline in crowds.

[Scotchy1]

2 hours ago, LeytherRob said:

The threads are difficult to navigate on here at the best of times with the derailment that goes on so was hoping for some actual source data. Best I could find was a Total RL article published in April this year by Stephen Ibbetson which shows more of a mixed bag than anything:

Cas 2010 - 6,616/2019 - 7,253

Cats 2010 - 6,806/2019 - 10,259

Hudds 2010 - 7,280/2019 - 5,226

Hull FC 2010 - 14,014/2019 - 11,479

Hull KR 2010 - 8,207/2019 - 8,220

Leeds 2010 - 15,208/2019 - 12,727

Salford 2010 - 4,166/2019 - 3,746

St Helens 2010 - 11,571/2019 - 11,910

Wakefield 2010 - 5,983/2019 - 5,468

Warrington 2010 - 10,738/2019 - 10,648

Wigan 2010 - 15,181/ 2019 - 11,432

Source - https://www.totalrl.com/up-or-down-an-in-depth-club-by-club-look-at-attendances-over-the-past-decade/

The article does also provide some interesting context into the 2012 season Scotchy held up, such as an anomalous spike in St Helens attendances due to first season at the new stadium, along with a large spike at Wakefield due to new ownership and 'generous prices'. Leeds looks fairly stable until a sharp drop when the work on headingly began, the only real concerns for me in that data are Wigan who do seem to be losing fans at a worrying rate and Huddersfield. It would be even more helpful to actually see game wide attendances to see a fuller picture than just Featherstone.

You have also missed Bradford going from 8k in 2010 (a particularly bad year for them in SL) to 4.5k in 2019.  A near 50% drop.

So since 2010 we have seen substantial drops at 4 of the 11 of the British clubs measured, and a rise at one french club. 

In the championship in 2010 the average was 1771, in 2019 (taking out Toronto and Bradford for the obvious reasons) the average was 1914. 

[LeytherRob]

9 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

If we leave Catalans out for that reason and just look at the 11 English teams, the crowd totals declined from 98,964 (average 8,996.7) in 2010 to 88,109 (average 8,009.9) in 2019.  The decline is almost 1,000 per match.

There's plenty factors been mentioned already but one that hasn't has been the advent of Thursday night SL games starting in 2013 or 2014(can't remember exactly when and wasn't immediately available on the quick Google i did). They've been pushing down 1 fixture a week quite considerably for the past 5/6 years now so it's actually quite impressive that several clubs have either maintained or improved their averages in that time. 

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, LeytherRob said:

There's plenty factors been mentioned already but one that hasn't has been the advent of Thursday night SL games starting in 2013 or 2014(can't remember exactly when and wasn't immediately available on the quick Google i did). They've been pushing down 1 fixture a week quite considerably for the past 5/6 years now so it's actually quite impressive that several clubs have either maintained or improved their averages in that time. 

We have had midweek matches for about 8 years now, it is not an excuse for attendances falling, and it isnt impressive that other attendances have stagnated. 

[Smudger06]

10 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

If we leave Catalans out for that reason and just look at the 11 English teams, the crowd totals declined from 98,964 (average 8,996.7) in 2010 to 88,109 (average 8,009.9) in 2019.  The decline is almost 1,000 per match.

They brought in licensing, fans excluded found something else to do, fans included got bored of a stale system.

Then they brought in a very long winded and over complex system to try and steady a sinking ship, people saw through it and saw it for the rip off that it was.

[LeytherRob]

1 minute ago, Scotchy1 said:

You have also missed Bradford going from 8k in 2010 (a particularly bad year for them in SL) to 4.5k in 2019.  A near 50% drop.

So since 2010 we have seen substantial drops at 4 of the 11 of the British clubs measured, and a rise at one french club. 

In the championship in 2010 the average was 1771, in 2019 (taking out Toronto and Bradford for the obvious reasons) the average was 1914. 

Bradford weren't in the data set available to me(I did ask if you could point me towards any good sources but you haven't been forthcoming as of yet) and considering they were in the championship rather than SL, it's not particularly comparable data anyway in the same way you've excluded Toronto and Bradford. Again you are looking for data to fit what you need it to say rather than the other way round. What would be really interesting to see would be the data for the full pro game so the data can be trended as a whole to counter things like relegations/promotions and new clubs.

[Scotchy1]

1 minute ago, Smudger06 said:

They brought in licensing, fans excluded found something else to do, fans included got bored of a stale system.

Then they brought in a very long winded and over complex system to try and steady a sinking ship, people saw through it and saw it for the rip off that it was.

Attendances went up after those figures during franchising. 

[Smudger06]

1 minute ago, Scotchy1 said:

Attendances went up after those figures during franchising. 

oh ok 

[LeytherRob]

5 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said:

We have had midweek matches for about 8 years now, it is not an excuse for attendances falling, and it isnt impressive that other attendances have stagnated. 

Which is pretty consistent with your original statement of crowds declining over the past 8-10 years is it not? 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Bradford weren't in the data set available to me(I did ask if you could point me towards any good sources but you haven't been forthcoming as of yet) and considering they were in the championship rather than SL, it's not particularly comparable data anyway in the same way you've excluded Toronto and Bradford. Again you are looking for data to fit what you need it to say rather than the other way round. What would be really interesting to see would be the data for the full pro game so the data can be trended as a whole to counter things like relegations/promotions and new clubs.

SL attendances 2010 8997 (according to your figures) 2012 10151, 2019 8009

Championship attendances 2010 1771, take out Bradford and Toronto for the obvious reasons in 2019 and its 1914. 

Bradford being in the championship and not SL is a feature of our current structures, not a bug. Their fall is absolutely relevant and shouldnt be excluded. 

[Scotchy1]

3 minutes ago, LeytherRob said:

Which is pretty consistent with your original statement of crowds declining over the past 8-10 years is it not? 

Not really. After 8 years its not really a new issue is it. Its life as it is. You might as well be blaming sunday trading laws changing.