Super League 2021 Start Date

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

5 hours ago, Hela Wigmen said:

11th March start, 9th October finish with twenty-seven rounds, six team play-off and Challenge Cup all to fit in. Good luck with that 

Super League starts on the 11th of March, could the Challenge Cup rounds up to the semi final be played as a pre season tournament? 

[whatmichaelsays]

7 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Well you tell your boss your not going to work fridays and see if he still pays you!

That kind of argument falls down when see more companies shifting to four-day working and finding that employee output remains the same, or even higher. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50287391

Surely this is about working smarter and not harder? If SL can provide a better outcome for Sky with lower effort, surely that's the avenue to persue? 

This is an entertainment product at the end of the day and when people buy entertainment, they expect quality. If they want things to be sold cheaply and in bulk, they go to Costco or B&M. 

[whatmichaelsays]

Double Post

[Markos]

48 minutes ago, yipyee said:

Well you tell your boss your not going to work fridays and see if he still pays you!

That’s what happened earlier this year, because the circumstances called for it and we adapted with government support to do just that.

Surely that’s  what every business, or sport must do next year if needed, to best manage the after effects of this year.

If it doesn’t need to, then fine, but to say people have contracts, tv deals and so on is a bit small picture, when this year/season has been one massive exercise in what can be done (or not done) if the circumstances dictate.

[yipyee]

46 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

That kind of argument falls down when see more companies shifting to four-day working and finding that employee output remains the same, or even higher. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50287391

Surely this is about working smarter and not harder? If SL can provide a better outcome for Sky with lower effort, surely that's the avenue to persue? 

This is an entertainment product at the end of the day and when people buy entertainment, they expect quality. If they want things to be sold cheaply and in bulk, they go to Costco or B&M. 

Hmm

Is this a 4 day week where productivity has been maintained by robotics and automation.

I agree with this from an employment point of view, I just dont see how RL can remain productive for 27 games if they are only going to play 23 rounds though?

I am also pointing out that if you sign an employment contract with your company you are agreeing to a set amount of hours.

If this is renegotiated for same pay for less hours fantastic, I cannot however see how or why sky would do this for less games. We are already being pushed out onto the free to air sports channel as it is!

[yipyee]

23 minutes ago, Markos said:

That’s what happened earlier this year, because the circumstances called for it and we adapted with government support to do just that.

Surely that’s  what every business, or sport must do next year if needed, to best manage the after effects of this year.

If it doesn’t need to, then fine, but to say people have contracts, tv deals and so on is a bit small picture, when this year/season has been one massive exercise in what can be done (or not done) if the circumstances dictate.

I agree but is the govenment going to pay the shortfall a year after covid, the example you give was during the pandemic.

Interesting that you say people have found a way when in reality whats happened is all the payment holidays etc need to be paid back but will now cost more as the interest will go up.

All of this year has cost everyone a hexk of a lot of money, some relise this but there are a lot of people oblivious to this! 

Tax will go up, wages will be static , no bonuses etc we cannot go into next year with the same mentality!

Dont take my word for it mcbanana said catalans have ran up huge debts this year to carry on, this isnt sustsinable and will cripple the next few years as the debts are repaid!

As usual its the same old from the common man on the street:

I want this but I dont want to pay for it mentality

[hunsletgreenandgold]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

14 day quarantine period ??

Good point - I guess i'm hopeful that won't be required by then and/or a vaccine is available to negate the risk. 

[RayCee]

A later start will be welcome news to our Canadian teams and supporters. Oh, too late. Never mind, they’ve gone.

[Neil_Ormston]

4 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I think the issue here is that I don't think that the game really has properly looked into this issue. How do we know that other events "won't cut it" when there have been few or no attempts to adequately test that market? We have grounds with huge amounts of spare capacity every single week - that's money that is being left on the table by every single club at every single fixture - why isn't there the demand to meet that supply?. 

As above, I think there is an issue when you have a sport run largely by accountants that they believe that the value of the product is largely inherent, and therefore they don't look at how you can add more value by doing things a bit differently. To them, version one of Wigan v St Helens or a Hull Derby is just as important, valuable and marketable as version five, even though the stats don't really back that up. 

It's incredibly hard for, for example, Wigan Warriors to hype up a derby against St Helens when the general public knows that there will probably be another one in seven or eight weeks time. It's difficult for Leeds to hype up a game against Hull KR when everyone remembers Leeds running up 40+ points on them earlier in the year. It's difficult to sell something new and exciting when what is being offered is the same old, same old that, most alarmingly, the sport knows isn't popular. 

What then happens is that you thin the demand across the season, rather than creating new demand, and you cheapen the product. Would I pay more for my ticket in exchange for getting more intense, meaningful games even if it meant less of them? Yes. I want to see quality, not quantity. 

Not sure what your beef is with accountants, but you mention them in two consecutive posts, suggesting they are somehow to blame here.  I think you're dealing with the wrong accountants! 

What evidence is there that the sport is largely run by accountants?  I'm not sure which of the current SL chairman (who seem to be the ones making the decisions we're discussing here) have an accountancy background - I'd be interested to know which ones are though if you could share.

It seems to me that the game would do a lot better if they look the professional advice of some experience finance people, who could advise on longer term strategies that would no doubt result in some very different decisions than we've seen of late.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

Tonga could beat them imho, in fact I’ve got fifty quid on them at 12/1. 

I expect you to be £50 down Eddie, Aus made some stupid mistakes in Auckland - I attended that game - nobody learns better about correcting mistakes better than the Kangaroo's it won't happen again, swallows and summer comes to mind re Tonga.

[Eddie]

9 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I expect you to be £50 down Eddie, Aus made some stupid mistakes in Auckland - I attended that game - nobody learns better about correcting mistakes better than the Kangaroo's it won't happen again, swallows and summer comes to mind re Tonga.

I expect to be 50 down as well, but I think 12s is a decent price, they have a chance in a one off game. I can’t see anyone else beating the Aussies but them. 

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

I expect to be 50 down as well, but I think 12s is a decent price, they have a chance in a one off game. I can’t see anyone else beating the Aussies but them. 

In your betting speak, Fiji are coming up quietly on the rails under the radar not being taken that much notice off, they could cause cause an upset or two, but not against Aus.

[Eddie]

Just now, Harry Stottle said:

In your betting speak, Fiji are coming up quietly on the rails under the radar not being taken that much notice off, they could cause cause an upset or two, but not against Aus.

I’m going to Fiji v Aus, just want to see a competitive game (ie not a ###### easy win for the Aussies), think they can do that. 

[whatmichaelsays]

2 hours ago, yipyee said:

Hmm

Is this a 4 day week where productivity has been maintained by robotics and automation.

I agree with this from an employment point of view, I just dont see how RL can remain productive for 27 games if they are only going to play 23 rounds though?

I am also pointing out that if you sign an employment contract with your company you are agreeing to a set amount of hours.

If this is renegotiated for same pay for less hours fantastic, I cannot however see how or why sky would do this for less games. We are already being pushed out onto the free to air sports channel as it is!

I would say it's the result of a culture shift - and I would argue a welcome one. Paying people based on output, rather than effort, is a much more productive way of doing things. The point being that if RL could provide Sky the most value to Sky by finding the optimum number of fixtures - which may or may not be lower than what we offer now - then it's something that Sky should be all ears to. 

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Neil_Ormston said:

Not sure what your beef is with accountants, but you mention them in two consecutive posts, suggesting they are somehow to blame here.  I think you're dealing with the wrong accountants! 

What evidence is there that the sport is largely run by accountants?  I'm not sure which of the current SL chairman (who seem to be the ones making the decisions we're discussing here) have an accountancy background - I'd be interested to know which ones are though if you could share.

It seems to me that the game would do a lot better if they look the professional advice of some experience finance people, who could advise on longer term strategies that would no doubt result in some very different decisions than we've seen of late.

Not so much an issue with accountants per say, but in general people who come from a discipline that follows "conventional" economic theory tend to have a certain mindset that makes assuptions that sound logical, but rarely are. Those people otend to hate people from my line of work because disciplines like marketing and advertising tend to disprove logical economic theory. Conventional economic thinking tells you that when you have a failing product, you reduce the price, yet the world is full of examples of companies that turned around their business and sold more of something by increasing the price. 

The reason we have things like loop fixtures is because that mindset says "fans like Wigan v St Helens and Hull Derbies, so let's put on as many of those as we can". That mindset doesn't understand that doing so devalues the whole product and makes people want it less. 

I disagree that the game needs more people from a finance background - it has enough of them and with respect to any accountants in the room - it's counting money and my four year old can do that. What the game needs is more people from creative, entertainments and events backgrounds - to my knowledge only Simon Moran fits that description. The game is selling entertainment, not selling widgets. 

[MZH]

The thing is though, if there were for example 5 Hull derbies at the KCOM in a season, there's a fair chance that they would make up Hull's 5 best attendances of the season. So yes, you are diluting the product to a degree, but a game against rovers will always draw a bigger crowd than a game against Salford, no matter how things are marketed. So you can't blame the money men for coming to the conclusion that more derbies = more money.

[Neil_Ormston]

8 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Not so much an issue with accountants per say, but in general people who come from a discipline that follows "conventional" economic theory tend to have a certain mindset that makes assuptions that sound logical, but rarely are. Those people otend to hate people from my line of work because disciplines like marketing and advertising tend to disprove logical economic theory. Conventional economic thinking tells you that when you have a failing product, you reduce the price, yet the world is full of examples of companies that turned around their business and sold more of something by increasing the price. 

The reason we have things like loop fixtures is because that mindset says "fans like Wigan v St Helens and Hull Derbies, so let's put on as many of those as we can". That mindset doesn't understand that doing so devalues the whole product and makes people want it less. 

I disagree that the game needs more people from a finance background - it has enough of them and with respect to any accountants in the room - it's counting money and my four year old can do that. What the game needs is more people from creative, entertainments and events backgrounds - to my knowledge only Simon Moran fits that description. The game is selling entertainment, not selling widgets. 

What an incredibly ignorant and offensive post: "with respect to any accountants in the room"?!  You clearly have neither respect, nor, it would seem, any idea of what varied roles people trained as accountants can and do undertake.  

To suggest that they "hate people from...disciplines like marketing and advertising" is ridiculous: as an accountant who has, in one of my recent roles, worked as the in-house finance advisor for a marketing team managing some of the largest FMCG brands in the country, I can tell you nothing is further from the truth.  We recognised the complementary strengths and competencies that we had, and worked together to use these to the benefit of the brands we owned.  They would tell you they made better decisions from the input they received from someone who saw things differently than they did, and that feeling was mutual.

It seems to me the game needs the input of more competent professionals from varied backgrounds, finance & marketing among them.  But I guess in any profession you get those who are good and bad at what they do; I'm sure there are plenty of marketing people who let loose on RL would cause untold damage, probably by thinking they had all the answers and were too arrogant to consult with others whose input could build on their ideas. 

[yipyee]

2 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

I would say it's the result of a culture shift - and I would argue a welcome one. Paying people based on output, rather than effort, is a much more productive way of doing things. The point being that if RL could provide Sky the most value to Sky by finding the optimum number of fixtures - which may or may not be lower than what we offer now - then it's something that Sky should be all ears to. 

I would agree but what we think maybe totally different to sky who in reality is the opinion that matters.

Sky will be suffering as well , didnt they pay refunds to customers during the first lockdown ?

I dont think they will care with the quality of the games as long as viewing numbers remain high, this justifies the fee paid out per subscriber and then allows the advert money for viewers etc..

At the end of the day sky will just want content to fill their channels.

On the topic of quality tv have you saw the ropey gaa round up with brian carney!

[Harry Stottle]

12 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

Paying people based on output, rather than effort,

Thats been going on for a very long time, from the thousands of Sales people who worked on commission only or with a small retainer. From what I have observed there is a massive turnover in personnel from that type of employment and so not much continuity, I am not disagreeing with you Michael, but I believe it is somewhere inbetween those two disciplines that work best, i.e pay well but reward from the proffits. 

[Damien]

Super League starting on the 11th March is getting back to the time of year that it should be starting every year.

I still cant believe Super League aren't playing less loop fixtures in world cup year to give us the best possible chance of winning.

[To Be Confirmed]

14 hours ago, RayCee said:

A later start will be welcome news to our Canadian teams and supporters. Oh, too late. Never mind, they’ve gone.

Yep, just think what could have happened if they had bothered to pay their players.

[whatmichaelsays]

On 26/11/2020 at 20:50, Neil_Ormston said:

What an incredibly ignorant and offensive post: "with respect to any accountants in the room"?!  You clearly have neither respect, nor, it would seem, any idea of what varied roles people trained as accountants can and do undertake.  

To suggest that they "hate people from...disciplines like marketing and advertising" is ridiculous: as an accountant who has, in one of my recent roles, worked as the in-house finance advisor for a marketing team managing some of the largest FMCG brands in the country, I can tell you nothing is further from the truth.  We recognised the complementary strengths and competencies that we had, and worked together to use these to the benefit of the brands we owned.  They would tell you they made better decisions from the input they received from someone who saw things differently than they did, and that feeling was mutual.

It seems to me the game needs the input of more competent professionals from varied backgrounds, finance & marketing among them.  But I guess in any profession you get those who are good and bad at what they do; I'm sure there are plenty of marketing people who let loose on RL would cause untold damage, probably by thinking they had all the answers and were too arrogant to consult with others whose input could build on their ideas. 

I think you've taken some of my comments a little too close to heart. I did say "tend" as I think that's accurate but I absolutely agree that when two respective skillsets combine, they produce great things. 

I thnk the issue is that in many organisations I have come across, including large FMCGs, that working relationship is fragile at best. I think there is also an issue that in many organisations, the finance managers are generally allowed to go around the business completely unpoliced, which you can't say for the more creative roles in a business. How many finance managers go to their superior with their ideas, only to be told "yes, this all sounds great, but I'm just going to run it by some creative types who wear jeans to work to see what they think"? I would argue that sort of attitude is why there is a lot of support amongst club owners for things like loop fixtures, because they look like a good idea on paper, even though they're a terrible (and potentially costly) idea when you look at them with a different lens. 

My overall point was that RL seems to have too much of one skillset and not enough of the other (as I say, only Simon Moran to my knowledge made his money in events and entertainment), even though that is principally what RL is. More people like him would probably ask more questions about the league's willingness to persist with a product that it is clear people don't like. 

[bobbruce]

On 26/11/2020 at 15:12, Davo5 said:

14 day quarantine period ??

Pro sports teams have had exemptions on that so far. 

[Davo5]

5 minutes ago, bobbruce said:

Pro sports teams have had exemptions on that so far. 

Not in Victoria they haven’t 

[JohnM]

On 26/11/2020 at 20:50, Neil_Ormston said:

What an incredibly ignorant and offensive post: "with respect to any accountants in the room"?!  You clearly have neither respect, nor, it would seem, any idea of what varied roles people trained as accountants can and do undertake.  

To suggest that they "hate people from...disciplines like marketing and advertising" is ridiculous: as an accountant who has, in one of my recent roles, worked as the in-house finance advisor for a marketing team managing some of the largest FMCG brands in the country, I can tell you nothing is further from the truth.  We recognised the complementary strengths and competencies that we had, and worked together to use these to the benefit of the brands we owned.  They would tell you they made better decisions from the input they received from someone who saw things differently than they did, and that feeling was mutual.

It seems to me the game needs the input of more competent professionals from varied backgrounds, finance & marketing among them.  But I guess in any profession you get those who are good and bad at what they do; I'm sure there are plenty of marketing people who let loose on RL would cause untold damage, probably by thinking they had all the answers and were too arrogant to consult with others whose input could build on their ideas. 

 I'm sure there are plenty of marketing people who let loose on RL would cause untold damage, 

No one of that nature posts on here, of course. Perish the thought!