Mr Plow Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 With Sean O'Loughlin retiring who would be your England captain for next year World Cup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 James Roby "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arcticchris Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Bateman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Roby, Gale? They're the only 2 current club captains that come to mind with a likely starting England potential. Hasn't Widdop captained before? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 16 minutes ago, arcticchris said: Bateman Hell of a player, but is he the captain type? Going by Wane's initial squad selection, maybe Gale, Farrell, Cooper or Roby. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Roby, Gale? They're the only 2 current club captains that come to mind with a likely starting England potential. Hasn't Widdop captained before? Widdop hasn't been selected in either of the last two elite squads Wane has announced. It doesn't mean he can't make the England side but it is a big leap from not being named in the elite squad to the captaincy. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEyePie Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 10 minutes ago, Futtocks said: Hell of a player, but is he the captain type? Going by Wane's initial squad selection, maybe Gale, Farrell, Cooper or Roby. I'd say he's probably favourite to be Wigan captain now that O'Loughlin has retired. Even before he left Wigan he was an obvious leader within the team and I'm sure he's developed even more in the NRL. I'm sure there are some good options from elsewhere too. You always need a number of leaders within a team anyway so who is named captain isn't always that important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futtocks Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 1 minute ago, EagleEyePie said: You always need a number of leaders within a team anyway so who is named captain isn't always that important. Very true. There are always some players who'll direct play, regardless of who has the armband. And Bateman will always be the motivator. Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted. Ralph Waldo Emerson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Widdop hasn't been selected in either of the last two elite squads Wane has announced. It doesn't mean he can't make the England side but it is a big leap from not being named in the elite squad to the captaincy. Agreed but it is a very limited list! With Burgess, O'Loughlin and Graham retiring in the past few Years the on field leadership of England RL has had its head cut off! Yet again we're seeing how there really has been minimal lplanning from the England RL guys since the 2017 WC final for the 2021 world cup. Coach change, 1 year off for a GB tour, now Captainless. From the end of the game in Brisbane, the plan should have been to build a squad for that game at Old Trafford in 2021. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 8 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said: I'd say he's probably favourite to be Wigan captain now that O'Loughlin has retired. Even before he left Wigan he was an obvious leader within the team and I'm sure he's developed even more in the NRL. I'm sure there are some good options from elsewhere too. You always need a number of leaders within a team anyway so who is named captain isn't always that important. Leading within a team is different to being a captain though. Captains have to make decisions on penalties, talking to the referee etc. A good team will have leaders across the park, but you need a captain who's savvy, especially at internationals. Whilst Bateman is quality and one of few dead certs to start for England in a WC final, I don't see him as captain material right now, without the experience of that from a club like Roby and Gale do for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Roby, Gale? They're the only 2 current club captains that come to mind with a likely starting England potential. Hasn't Widdop captained before? Will Gale even make the team ? Not many nailed on starters,Roby,Walmsley,Bateman & Williams maybe so you’d probably go Roby or Bateman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjhrads93 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Just now, Davo5 said: Will Gale even make the team ? Not many nailed on starters,Roby,Walmsley,Bateman & Williams maybe so you’d probably go Roby or Bateman Is Roby nailed on? I would play him but Hodgson will be there or there abouts won’t he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEyePie Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 7 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Leading within a team is different to being a captain though. Captains have to make decisions on penalties, talking to the referee etc. A good team will have leaders across the park, but you need a captain who's savvy, especially at internationals. Whilst Bateman is quality and one of few dead certs to start for England in a WC final, I don't see him as captain material right now, without the experience of that from a club like Roby and Gale do for example. Jamie Peacock wasn't club captain but was made England captain. I think people put far too much stock in who wears the armband. The decision makers on the field aren't even necessarily the captains. Quite often in the case of penalties you see someone other than the captain make the call to take the two or kick to touch. It's a team game and leadership is a team responsibility. The only thing I'd say can be quite important is, as you mention, talking to the referee. In general though most players have no issue there. I don't think there is anyone in the England side who could be a liability in that respect except Tomkins (and he's not as bad as he used to be). Certainly no one is at Danny Brough levels of being the last person you want having to talk to the ref. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 1 minute ago, tjhrads93 said: Is Roby nailed on? I would play him but Hodgson will be there or there abouts won’t he? If fit and inform yes,still our best 9 and head & shoulders about Hodgson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Davo5 said: Will Gale even make the team ? Not many nailed on starters,Roby,Walmsley,Bateman & Williams maybe so you’d probably go Roby or Bateman Will Roby make it? Sometimes I think you may have to accept that the captaincy skills will take a player just ahead of another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 1 minute ago, EagleEyePie said: Jamie Peacock wasn't club captain but was made England captain. I think people put far too much stock in who wears the armband. The decision makers on the field aren't even necessarily the captains. Quite often in the case of penalties you see someone other than the captain make the call to take the two or kick to touch. It's a team game and leadership is a team responsibility. The only thing I'd say can be quite important is, as you mention, talking to the referee. In general though most players have no issue there. I don't think there is anyone in the England side who could be a liability in that respect except Tomkins (and he's not as bad as he used to be). Certainly no one is at Danny Brough levels of being the last person you want having to talk to the ref. Peacock was Bradford captain when he became GB captain and was going to be Leeds Captain but for an excellent working relationship with Kev Sinfield. Decision making is important though. Personally I like having a goal kicker as captain too. In various teams, and codes in fact, having a goal kicker who can take control of a situation and kick the 2 (or choose not to) without a committee meeting is a valuable asset that could be hugely important in the World Cup. Being captain can make these decisive calls far easier. All the aspects of captaincy have to be learned on the job. Given the new coach, total lack of playing time together, and the opposition we'll face to win the world cup, I think having a rookie captain for England would be a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Will Roby make it? Sometimes I think you may have to accept that the captaincy skills will take a player just ahead of another. Not when that player is a halfback if your referring to Gale. Roby shows no signs of decline and with only 12 months to go his game isn’t suddenly drop off a cliff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Plow Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Agreed but it is a very limited list! With Burgess, O'Loughlin and Graham retiring in the past few Years the on field leadership of England RL has had its head cut off! Yet again we're seeing how there really has been minimal lplanning from the England RL guys since the 2017 WC final for the 2021 world cup. Coach change, 1 year off for a GB tour, now Captainless. From the end of the game in Brisbane, the plan should have been to build a squad for that game at Old Trafford in 2021. Bennet should have left after the WC for Wane to take over and not have that disastrous GB tour. We needed a transitional period after 2017 but we’re having it now, obviously Covid hasn’t helped. Another good question is what is England’s best starting XIII? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Just now, Davo5 said: Not when that player is a halfback if your referring to Gale. Roby shows no signs of decline and with only 12 months to go his game isn’t suddenly drop off a cliff. Gale's a senior captain who equally has experience at England level. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he's a prime example here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweaty craiq Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Isn't either Williams or Lomax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Agreed but it is a very limited list! With Burgess, O'Loughlin and Graham retiring in the past few Years the on field leadership of England RL has had its head cut off! Yet again we're seeing how there really has been minimal lplanning from the England RL guys since the 2017 WC final for the 2021 world cup. Coach change, 1 year off for a GB tour, now Captainless. From the end of the game in Brisbane, the plan should have been to build a squad for that game at Old Trafford in 2021. Yes, its one of the discussions we have had on here many times over the years. In a perfect world, I totally agree with you that we should have been looking to develop the squad and the team for the last 3 years for the '21 tournament. And this may have meant looking at youth in the place of a few players who were bot going to be around in 2021. But in reality, we play so little international games that this is practically impossible... we are not playing 10 to 15 games a year like other codes to develop players as they play. The other problem is that we can never really anticipate the left field injuries or losses... we all hoped that Sam Burgess was destined to be the cornerstone of the English team next year and probably captain before he was forced into early retirement. Because of this I advocate the approach of picking the best squad and team available and try and develop a winning England culture (and of course a winning brand). This is what the Kangaroos have been doing for 50 years... pick the best available 17 for every game (albeit for richer stocks). Pick the best team available and pick the captain from that team. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, Mr Plow said: Bennet should have left after the WC for Wane to take over and not have that disastrous GB tour. We needed a transitional period after 2017 but we’re having it now, obviously Covid hasn’t helped. Another good question is what is England’s best starting XIII? Left after the first World Cup Final appearance in 22 years? You’d have only spent your time whinging about how ridiculous that decision would have been, which it would have. We shouldn’t have bizarrely turned back to GB for a year without any explanation why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EagleEyePie Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Tommygilf said: Peacock was Bradford captain when he became GB captain and was going to be Leeds Captain but for an excellent working relationship with Kev Sinfield. Decision making is important though. Personally I like having a goal kicker as captain too. In various teams, and codes in fact, having a goal kicker who can take control of a situation and kick the 2 (or choose not to) without a committee meeting is a valuable asset that could be hugely important in the World Cup. Being captain can make these decisive calls far easier. All the aspects of captaincy have to be learned on the job. Given the new coach, total lack of playing time together, and the opposition we'll face to win the world cup, I think having a rookie captain for England would be a mistake. Fair point on Peacock, but he had only been captain at Bradford for one year when he was made GB captain. If Bateman does indeed become Wigan captain then that would put him in the same situation. Regardless of that, we're going to have to identify numerous leaders within the group. I agree that decision making is important, but generally your decision makers are leaders. Peacock and Graham were excellent captains but they'd definitely have to consult with kickers when it comes to goalkicking. Part of being a good leader is knowing who to trust in the team. If you try to pin down a leader as someone who can do everything then you'll never really find the right person. No leader and as a result no captain is a complete all rounder. Different personalities lend to different leadership styles and there isn't necessarily a right or a wrong way to be a captain. A captain will often be judged on how successful their team is. I don't think you learn how to be a captain only by being a captain. You learn by playing in teams that have good captains and good leaders and then take that role upon yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 1 minute ago, Mr Plow said: Bennet should have left after the WC for Wane to take over and not have that disastrous GB tour. We needed a transitional period after 2017 but we’re having it now, obviously Covid hasn’t helped. Another good question is what is England’s best starting XIII? Exactly. Not to take this cross code but after reaching their WC final in 2019, England RU brought in a raft of changes for the 2020 squad. They did the same following 2015 to build a new team. We've not advanced at all since 2017. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hela Wigmen Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Is Wane not going to go with a “leadership team” or whatever he used to call it at Wigan, where they’d have something like five captains, with the armband being handed to one depending on the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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