England captain

[ELBOWSEYE]

1 hour ago, Davo5 said:

So still not sure of his place which leaves Roby as the obvious choice.

You keep quoting Roby as an obvious choice, he has been one of the best but was not first or second choice last time and he will not be at his best in 12 months time age will have an effect especially the minutes he plays, Hodson, Clarke, mcshane, (MOS) are 3 top hookers who will be pushing for a WC place. The captain will depend on getting in the squad first. 

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

You keep quoting Roby as an obvious choice, he has been one of the best but was not first or second choice last time and he will not be at his best in 12 months time age will have an effect especially the minutes he plays, Hodson, Clarke, mcshane, (MOS) are 3 top hookers who will be pushing for a WC place. The captain will depend on getting in the squad first. 

We have been saying the thing about Roby for years and yet he has just been named man of the match in one of the best and most intense games we have seen in this country for a long time.

The World Cup final is exactly one year from yesterday's Grand Final. It would be a rapid deterioration for Roby to not be one of the best players available. The guy is a machine.

[ELBOWSEYE]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

We have been saying the thing about Roby for years and yet he has just been named man of the match in one of the best and most intense games we have seen in this country for a long time.

The World Cup final is exactly one year from yesterday's Grand Final. It would be a rapid deterioration for Roby to not be one of the best players available. The guy is a machine.

He played well but that does not mean he will be the best hooker available and suit the style Wane wants, the three hookers I named are all top hookers who will each offer something different and form and fitness at the end of next season will have an input. 

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

He played well but that does not mean he will be the best hooker available and suit the style Wane wants, the three hookers I named are all top hookers who will each offer something different and form and fitness at the end of next season will have an input. 

Of course. We are lucky to have plenty of competition in that spot and I absolutely advocate picking the squad on form.

Nobody can predict form or fitness but as of today I would have Roby in the England squad and I would have him as the England captain.

[Harry Stottle]

59 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Absolutely, but that won't be about him purely as a hooker, his leadership and combinations have been essential.

I very much doubt Wane or any experienced coach will send out a team without clear leaders and a clear captain. Even Bennett for all his flaws had Graham and Burgess.

Off course Mr Wane won't do that he will have no need to, most of the player's in his squad will be seasoned and expierenced by that fact alone there will be clear leaders all he needs to do then is hand the arm band to who he sees best fit.

[Harry Stottle]

23 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

Nobody can predict form or fitness but as of today I would have Roby in the England squad and I would have him as the England captain.

As I eluded to earlier McNamara did exactly that in March of '13 some 10 months before the comp.

[Guest]

If Sam Tomkins is his starting fullback then I could see him being captain.

[Tommygilf]

8 minutes ago, 7723 said:

If Sam Tomkins is his starting fullback then I could see him being captain.

I agree its not beyond possibility.

[Dunbar]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

As I eluded to earlier McNamara did exactly that in March of '13 some 10 months before the comp.

Sinfield was already the captain of the England side after captaining them in the autumn of 2012 and McNamara is quoted as saying this is March 2013 "Kevin is captain of this group and he will be the captain of the squad and team if he’s picked  But he knows he’s got to be at a certain standard to be in".

I don't think that is particularly controversial. He explicitly stated that he has to be playing well enough to be selected and he was the incumbent captain.

[Dunbar]

These days, the coaches tend to focus on the leadership group rather than a specific leader.  Looking at the last elite squad that Wane named, you would say that there is plenty of experience and leadership in there.

Daryl Clark, Mike Cooper, Ben Currie, Joe Philbin, Stefan Ratchford, Toby King, Niall Evalds, Dan Sarginson, Kallum Watkins, Liam Farrell, Oliver Gildart, Zak Hardaker, Dom Manfredi, John Bateman, Luke Gale, Harry Newman, Ash Handley, Josh Griffin, Tom Johnstone, Jonny Lomax, Tommy Makinson, Mark Percival, James Roby, Alex Walmsley, Morgan Knowles, Paul McShane, Jermaine McGillvary, Sam Tomkins, Luke Thompson, Herbie Farnworth, George Williams, Elliott Whitehead, Josh Hodgson, Ryan Sutton, Tom Burgess

[AB90]

If I was guessing, as there is no concrete, stand out candidate then a leadership committee (or what ever it's called these days) may be the preferred option.

[DavidM]

28 minutes ago, AB90 said:

If I was guessing, as there is no concrete, stand out candidate then a leadership committee (or what ever it's called these days) may be the preferred option.

It’ll take ages having a meeting before they decide to kick at goal or not

[Tex Evans Thigh]

I doubt Roby will play next year but if he does and is selected then he is the obvious choice. The team as it looks now lacks a lot of experience and we'll probably go in without any real leaders, particularly in the forwards. Bateman hopefully to step up into a leadership role to complement his general play, Whitehead, not sure, Hodgson probably if he returns from the knee injury ok. We really are missing those Farrell, Sculthorpe, Ellis, Burgess, O'Loughlin, Graham type players. The last WC was our chance, I dont think this one bodes well.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Sinfield was already the captain of the England side after captaining them in the autumn of 2012 and McNamara is quoted as saying this is March 2013 "Kevin is captain of this group and he will be the captain of the squad and team if he’s picked  But he knows he’s got to be at a certain standard to be in".

I don't think that is particularly controversial. He explicitly stated that he has to be playing well enough to be selected and he was the incumbent captain.

And he also told Danny Brough at the same that Sinfield/Chase were to be his preferred half backs, to which Brough protested by advising Scotland of his availability, read into that what you will. 

I can't remember the exact wording but Brough related the telephone conversation with McNamara to the press, and said he had been informed that he was behind the two afore mentioned and he (McNamara) saw Chase as the better option alongside Sinfield.

[Jim Prendle]

17 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Gale's a senior captain who equally has experience at England level. I'm not saying he's perfect, but he's a prime example here.

Luke Gale as England captain? 

Would it be his tendency to go missing in games that actually mean something that leads you to that conclusion, or his world-class whining that would get him the job?

Wane will hopefully pick someone that will lead his team by example, not start crying when the referee shouts at him.

[Dunbar]

6 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

I doubt Roby will play next year but if he does and is selected then he is the obvious choice. The team as it looks now lacks a lot of experience and we'll probably go in without any real leaders, particularly in the forwards. Bateman hopefully to step up into a leadership role to complement his general play, Whitehead, not sure, Hodgson probably if he returns from the knee injury ok. We really are missing those Farrell, Sculthorpe, Ellis, Burgess, O'Loughlin, Graham type players. The last WC was our chance, I dont think this one bodes well.

I'm not sure I share your pessimism around the prospects for England in the next World Cup.  Yes, we are missing Sam Burgess, O'Loughlin and Graham from the pack but O'Loughlin missed out on the final in '17 and so realistically we are looking at replacing Graham and Burgess from that pack.  The staring props in that final were Hill and Graham while the bench forwards were Tom Burgess and Alex Walmsley.  I would argue that the latter two have developed considerably over the last 4 years and are now the pack leaders for Souths in the NRL and the Super League champions.  I am also pretty sure we can find a better rotation forward than Heighington on the bench.  Not least Luke Thompson who will hopefully have had a full year of NRL action behind him next year.

The fact we have some real competition and in the centres now (Jake Wardle, Toby King, Oliver Gildart, Herbie Farnworth and Mark Percival) means we can actually play Bateman in the back row where he is most effective.

But most importantly for me is the spine.  In 2007 we saw 1) Widdop 6) Brown 7) Gale and 9) Roby

Leaving aside the 9 position as I think we will have quality there whoever we go for, 1, 6 & 7 could be much stronger in 2021.  I would suggest that Sam Tomkins is a much more effective full back than Widdop while George Williams at 6 or 7 is a big step up from Brown.  So even if it is Gale at 7 a spine of 1) Tomkins 6) Williams and 7) Gale is a big improvement.

We can lament the lack of leadership in the forwards but it isn't the forwards that control a game, it is the spine and the game management and kicking execution is where we have been miles behind the Australians (and to a lesser extent the Kiwis) over the years.

[17 stone giant]

Who is our most handsome and photogenic player? We need someone who will look good when lifting the trophy.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Who is our most handsome and photogenic player? We need someone who will look good when lifting the trophy.

Ash Handley, every chance he could play if other wingers are injured.

[Dunbar]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And he also told Danny Brough at the same that Sinfield/Chase were to be his preferred half backs, to which Brough protested by advising Scotland of his availability, read into that what you will. 

I can't remember the exact wording but Brough related the telephone conversation with McNamara to the press, and said he had been informed that as it was he was behind the two afore mentioned and he (McNamara) saw Chase as the better option alongside Sinfield.

I would imagine that these types of conversations go on all the time at club and international level as a coach manages the expectations and ambitions of his players.  It's part of any managers responsibility in any field.  I have told plenty of people in my career that they will not get what they want or aspire to (and plenty of people that they will) and I try to explain why in an honest and respectful manner.  I don't expect them to like it but I do hope they respect my rationale for making the decision.

The difference here is that this conversation was fed to the public through the media and that Brough decided that his future lay with Scotland rather than trying to win his place in the England side.

(And that is not to say that I agree with the actual selection decision of Chase and Sinfield over Brough) 

[Hela Wigmen]

18 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

Who is our most handsome and photogenic player? We need someone who will look good when lifting the trophy.

They’re handing out a trophy for coming third this time round?

[Tommygilf]

16 hours ago, Dunbar said:

These days, the coaches tend to focus on the leadership group rather than a specific leader.  Looking at the last elite squad that Wane named, you would say that there is plenty of experience and leadership in there.

Daryl Clark, Mike Cooper, Ben Currie, Joe Philbin, Stefan Ratchford, Toby King, Niall Evalds, Dan Sarginson, Kallum Watkins, Liam Farrell, Oliver Gildart, Zak Hardaker, Dom Manfredi, John Bateman, Luke Gale, Harry Newman, Ash Handley, Josh Griffin, Tom Johnstone, Jonny Lomax, Tommy Makinson, Mark Percival, James Roby, Alex Walmsley, Morgan Knowles, Paul McShane, Jermaine McGillvary, Sam Tomkins, Luke Thompson, Herbie Farnworth, George Williams, Elliott Whitehead, Josh Hodgson, Ryan Sutton, Tom Burgess

Agreed, but looking at a realistic lineup based purely on form from that list.

Ratchford, McGillvary, Percival, Gildart, Makinson; Williams, Lomax; Walmsley, McShane, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman, Thompson.

Is there a standout "captain" there? I don't think so - which could lead to having Roby or Tomkins or Gale in (for example) ahead of the pure form choice because that team looks a bit lacking in leadership that comes with captaincy. Ideally I'd have a few club captains in too, hopefully Bateman gets the Wigan gig.

[Dunbar]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Agreed, but looking at a realistic lineup based purely on form from that list.

Ratchford, McGillvary, Percival, Gildart, Makinson; Williams, Lomax; Walmsley, McShane, Burgess, Whitehead, Bateman, Thompson.

Is there a standout "captain" there? I don't think so - which could lead to having Roby or Tomkins or Gale in (for example) ahead of the pure form choice because that team looks a bit lacking in leadership that comes with captaincy. Ideally I'd have a few club captains in too, hopefully Bateman gets the Wigan gig.

Well, if we were picking the team today I would select Roby at 9 and Tomkins at 1 as the best playing options and so Roby as captain and Tomkins as another option.

But who knows in 12 months from now.

[Damien]

Roby and Clarke are the best hookers by some distance and have been for a number of years. Roby just keeps doing at the top level and as such he is hard to dismiss. Clarke coming off the bench offers a heck of a lot. For me its a fine line between the two. McShane obviously won MoS but in my opinion isn't as good as these two.

Hodgson has had his chances at international level and has never done it for me. Too slow, too ponderous and believes his NRL reputation a little too much by taking over and trying to organise and be a playmaker, to the detriment of the team. The halfs just never see quality ball with Hodgson at 9.

[Dunbar]

7 minutes ago, Damien said:

Roby and Clarke are the best hookers by some distance and have been for a number of years. Roby just keeps doing at the top level and as such he is hard to dismiss. Clarke coming off the bench offers a heck of a lot. For me its a fine line between the two. McShane obviously won MoS but in my opinion isn't as good as these two.

Hodgson has had his chances at international level and has never done it for me. Too slow, too ponderous and believes his NRL reputation a little too much by taking over and trying to organise and be a playmaker, to the detriment of the team. The halfs just never see quality ball with Hodgson at 9.

I agree with this assessment.  As of November 2020, our best hooker is Roby and if you want a dedicated interchange hooker off the bench then that is Clark as he offers the best running threat and still provides quality quick ball.  

In November 2021 this could be different but the same faces will be in the mix and at least we have competition and depth in this position.

Hodgson is a bit of an enigma.  His NRL reputation is huge and he was regarded as the 2nd best NRL 9 for a number of years behind Cam Smith.  But I wonder how much of this is based on him being unexpectedly good after he came from the UK.  I know he has had some great games for the Raiders but the fact remains that the Raiders win ratio in the two seasons where he suffered injury is actually better without Hodgson playing than when he does.  Certainly this year, the Raiders were better when Williams and Wighton started to get faster, cleaner ball from dummy half... as you say, he slows England down when he plays at 9 and I think he slows the Raiders down as well.  I prefer my 9's to provide sharp clean ball from dummy half and I think all of the above do this better than Hodgson.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I agree with this assessment.  As of November 2020, our best hooker is Roby and if you want a dedicated interchange hooker off the bench then that is Clark as he offers the best running threat and still provides quality quick ball.  

In November 2021 this could be different but the same faces will be in the mix and at least we have competition and depth in this position.

Hodgson is a bit of an enigma.  His NRL reputation is huge and he was regarded as the 2nd best NRL 9 for a number of years behind Cam Smith.  But I wonder how much of this is based on him being unexpectedly good after he came from the UK.  I know he has had some great games for the Raiders but the fact remains that the Raiders win ratio in the two seasons where he suffered injury is actually better without Hodgson playing than when he does.  Certainly this year, the Raiders were better when Williams and Wighton started to get faster, cleaner ball from dummy half... as you say, he slows England down when he plays at 9 and I think he slows the Raiders down as well.  I prefer my 9's to provide sharp clean ball from dummy half and I think all of the above do this better than Hodgson.

I agree. I honestly think that if/when Hodgson returns to Super League that he would be rated no higher than before he left. I don't think he would be rated any better than players like McShane, McIlorum or say Powell.