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18 hours ago, yipyee said:

Spitfires fought in battles against other air forces,

Bombers dropped bombs on civilians.

The Dambuster raids are a modern day war crime in that they attacked a water supply

War crime ? How do you come to that conclusion ? The dams in question supplied armament factories and ball bearing factories. So basically you are calling the men of bomber command war criminals all 55,000 of them that gave the ultimate sacrifice ?

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Halifax name change to War crimes in only 7 pages. Must be some sort of Total RL record?

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My mate works in the commercial department of a professional sports club and I asked him about modern rebranding and if there is any conclusive evidence that it does directly positively affect crowd sizes and support base.

This is his reply:

"...probably not conclusively but I’d say there’s lots of untanglebles in there around perception of the club, how competition is perceived by a broadcast audience, what ‘consumers’ want to aspire to be associated with, digital presentation, merchandise.

Do I think Halifax will add 1,000 to the gates next year because of a logo, no. Will it help them engage with the next generation when they go into schools etc, maybe.

Not sure why they didn’t revisit blue sox, presumably there’s a rationale behind that.

Wigan are having a unreal month on retail apparently so as much as the noisy minority hate it on social media they are happy with how it’s going. 

Plucking a random animal out the air never feels authentic but I guess at some point someone decided Hull KR would be Robins so every club has gone through it at some point."

Both my mate and I of course hope it is a success 👍

Edited by HKR AWAY DAYS
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1 hour ago, HKR AWAY DAYS said:

"Not sure why they didn’t revisit blue sox, presumably there’s a rationale behind that."

 

I have to question the abilities of some marketing people if they seriously can't see why that was and remains an utterly flawed and counterproductive name.

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6 hours ago, Loiner said:

War crime ? How do you come to that conclusion ? The dams in question supplied armament factories and ball bearing factories. So basically you are calling the men of bomber command war criminals all 55,000 of them that gave the ultimate sacrifice ?

No I am stating a fact and also why there is not as much fanfare and medals for the bomber crews...

A lot of innocent civilians died and it is a war crime to attack a water source.

Of course it wasnt against international law back then.

Go and educate yourself before shooting from the hip... that also includes the muppets who liked your post..

A good starting point is the geneva convention principles for war time and conflict of protection of water and infastructure,  principle 6

Good bbc article on the topic including quotes from a dam buster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44255399
 

Edited by yipyee
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1 hour ago, yipyee said:

No I am stating a fact and also why there is not as much fanfare and medals for the bomber crews...

A lot of innocent civilians died and it is a war crime to attack a water source.

Of course it wasnt against international law back then.

Go and educate yourself before shooting from the hip... that also includes the muppets who liked your post..

A good starting point is the geneva convention principles for war time and conflict of protection of water and infastructure,  principle 6

Good bbc article on the topic including quotes from a dam buster.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-44255399
 

So replying as one of the muppets you referred to...

The quote from Johnny Johnson was that the clasp to be attached to the ‘39 to ‘45 Star will remain in his box until Bomber Command Veterans are awarded a campaign medal. I don’t know what quotes you are referring to? Maybe the Peace Pledge Union rep, certainly not the Dambuster. As a descendant of RAF personnel who served in WW2, I am extremely proud of their service. Without the destruction of the dams, Nazi war effort would not have been disrupted, the war would have been prolonged, mass murder extended and many more Allied service men and women along with more innocent civilians would have died. You will probably be comfortable with that, just so long as you can point the finger at brave young men for committing a ‘war crime’. Sums up this woke culture that we find ourselves in.

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I certainly wouldn’t label WW2 airmen as war criminals.

But it has to be understood that most of the bombing that the British did during that war at night was so inaccurate that all we could really do was bomb residential areas at great cost in human life both ours and theirs.

It was a terrible war with terrible things done on both sides, personally I don’t think we should be trivialising it in Halifax in 2021 with men running around in ‘bomber’ mascot suits or selling ‘bomber’ merchandise to children.

Edited by Gerrumonside ref
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16 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:

I certainly wouldn’t label WW2 airmen as war criminals.

But it has to be understood that most of the bombing that the British did during that war at night was so inaccurate that all we could really do was bomb residential areas at great cost in human life both ours and theirs.

It was a terrible war with terrible things done on both sides, personally I don’t we should be trivialising it in Halifax in 2021 with men running around in ‘bomber’ mascot suits or selling ‘bomber’ merchandise to children.

Quite.

The aforementioned muppets take offence (their favourite role in life) at being told that there is nuance to the past, that everything we did wasn't great, even if it seemed necessary at the time. Bomber command killed hundreds of thousands of people who were utterly innocent as well as hitting genuinely military targets. It was an imprecise, bloody war, even when they weren't going for soft targets like the dams.

Undermining people's mythology (or a mythology they have created for themselves based on something their grandparents did) is a difficult thing. Almost as discomfiting as changing a Rugby League club's name.

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3 hours ago, Mumby Magic said:

There was a video doing therounds last week of an animal in Halifaxs Piece Hall. On reflection turns out it was a Panther and obviously a promo vid.

There were a few along with making a national paper as well. It got a lot of people talking around the town so I guess it might be all publicity is good publicity. Apparently the club has made record shirt sales since the new shirts went on sale so something has worked as a start.

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1 hour ago, The Blues Ox said:

There were a few along with making a national paper as well. It got a lot of people talking around the town so I guess it might be all publicity is good publicity. Apparently the club has made record shirt sales since the new shirts went on sale so something has worked as a start.

I'm not surprised, I think the shirts look great and you might as well have a panther as anything else.

Last time I saw a Rhino was in London Zoo. 

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On 02/12/2020 at 18:40, Eddie said:

I don’t know why teams need these names, Halifax RL is fine. However if they must have one it’s fairly dull and generic, personally I prefer names with local connections. Hope it works out for them though. 

Agreed 

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On 04/12/2020 at 19:18, M j M said:

I have to question the abilities of some marketing people if they seriously can't see why that was and remains an utterly flawed and counterproductive name.

He didn't say that though, did he? He said he doesn't know why they didn't revisit the idea. If you don't know you don't know.

He didn't mention anything about it being flawed or counter-productive. I don't know what you are on about. 

Edited by HKR AWAY DAYS
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6 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I'm not surprised, I think the shirts look great and you might as well have a panther as anything else.

Last time I saw a Rhino was in London Zoo. 

i saw one running wild at headingley

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5 hours ago, HKR AWAY DAYS said:

He didn't say that though, did he? He said he doesn't know why they didn't revisit the idea. If you don't know you don't know.

He didn't mention anything about it being flawed or counter-productive. I don't know what you are on about. 

Sigh.

OK, let me put it this way.

I'd be worried if a marketing professional didn't know pretty instinctively why the name failed and was bad for the club before and would be even worse second time around.

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22 hours ago, burnleywelsh said:

So replying as one of the muppets you referred to...

The quote from Johnny Johnson was that the clasp to be attached to the ‘39 to ‘45 Star will remain in his box until Bomber Command Veterans are awarded a campaign medal. I don’t know what quotes you are referring to? Maybe the Peace Pledge Union rep, certainly not the Dambuster. As a descendant of RAF personnel who served in WW2, I am extremely proud of their service. Without the destruction of the dams, Nazi war effort would not have been disrupted, the war would have been prolonged, mass murder extended and many more Allied service men and women along with more innocent civilians would have died. You will probably be comfortable with that, just so long as you can point the finger at brave young men for committing a ‘war crime’. Sums up this woke culture that we find ourselves in.

Similar retoric to the americans that practice torture... its ok as they are bad and its saving american lives.

The men who fought on both sides were heroic, they didnt come up with the policys or started any wars.

The powers that be decided that a lot of what went on from both sides was wrong and set about making it international law to prevent said attrocities happening again.

If this is the culture you deem bad which has precided over peace in western europe since maybe its the culture of previous empire building generations that was out of line! 

 

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On 05/12/2020 at 00:20, burnleywelsh said:

So replying as one of the muppets you referred to...

The quote from Johnny Johnson was that the clasp to be attached to the ‘39 to ‘45 Star will remain in his box until Bomber Command Veterans are awarded a campaign medal. I don’t know what quotes you are referring to? Maybe the Peace Pledge Union rep, certainly not the Dambuster. As a descendant of RAF personnel who served in WW2, I am extremely proud of their service. Without the destruction of the dams, Nazi war effort would not have been disrupted, the war would have been prolonged, mass murder extended and many more Allied service men and women along with more innocent civilians would have died. You will probably be comfortable with that, just so long as you can point the finger at brave young men for committing a ‘war crime’. Sums up this woke culture that we find ourselves in.

I would also mention that it enabled the faster liberation of  the Jewish people held in the concentration camps.

It was obviously necessary at the time and shouldn't be re-evaluated now. 

I think bombers is not suitable in today's climate of suicide bombers. 

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As the relative of a dambuster* , someone whose wife lost much of her family in the camps, an ex serviceman** and a rugby league fan (desperately trying to keep this tangent as relevant as possible) there’s huge nuance in all of this:

1) the efforts of bomber command were very brave

2) they may have shortened the war, but mainly helped to keep morale up in the UK that we were handing out what we were getting - certainly after Dunkirk. The targeted bombing in support of ground offensives did immeasurably more for the war then the nightly thousand bomber raids.

3) the Dambusters raid was a sideshow off a sideshow that was suicidally brave, extremely innovative and, er, generally considered these days by serious historians (not ‘the woke’) to have not really achieved much in terms of the war...

4) to Yipyee’s point, the men who fought on both sides were not ‘heroic’ they were human. Otherwise there’s a lot to excuse (on both sides but in particular quite a lot of men were in the SS and I’m not particularly up for excusing their behaviour on the grounds of not being the ones who gave the orders, never mind the ‘good Wehrmacht’ myth).

*I met him about 5 times in total so I don’t really dine out on it, but it was good bragging in the playground...
 

**felt the need to get that one in before I’m accused of being a woke snowflake

Edited by iffleyox
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So ... we're agreed that Panthers is a better name than Bombers and that despite our many reservations it's up to Halifax to make it work now ...

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

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On 05/12/2020 at 10:27, gavin7094 said:

The 'Halifax' bomber had as little to do with the town of Halifax as a black panther does. 

I heard that cats eyes were invented in halifax with a drunk man dreaming up the idea after getting lost going from the pub in the fog, 

 Therefore a large cat would have more to do with Halifax than most other nicknames

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