Heartland expansion

[Hopping Mad]

1 hour ago, Pottsy said:

Rotherham Roosters(I think)

Rotherham Giants.

[DoubleD]

1 hour ago, Pottsy said:

Hillsborough Hawks

Hoyland Vikings

Dearne Valley Bulldogs

North Derbyshire Chargers/Chesterfield Spires*

Sheffield Forgers

Doncaster Toll Bar

Moorends Marauders

Rotherham Roosters(I think)

Barton Bulldogs

Lincoln City

South Humber Rabbitohs (Grimsby)

Scunthorpe Barbarians 

Derby City

Nottingham Outlaws

Sherwood Wolfhunt

 

I don’t know how many of these clubs are still afloat and I’ve probably forgotten a few but over the past decade or  there have been a lot of clubs in and around the wider South Yorks/North Mids region. 
 

I think there was a junior club in Balby, Doncaster for a short period of time too. Bentley are still around Doncaster though I believe?

I think nearly half of those no longer exist though. There was a team in High Peak as well at one time. 

Fortunately a few new clubs are propping up in recent years - Immingham, Bassetlaw and Bolsover which will hopefully be more sustainable 

[Pottsy]

3 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

I think there was a junior club in Balby, Doncaster for a short period of time too. Bentley are still around Doncaster though I believe?

I think nearly half of those no longer exist though. There was a team in High Peak as well at one time. 

Fortunately a few new clubs are propping up in recent years - Immingham, Bassetlaw and Bolsover which will hopefully be more sustainable 

I think you’re referring to Buxton Bulls. I think Mike Shires from Leeds Akkies was involved there iirc.

With a bit of structure, organisation and joined up thinking, there was definitely something that could’ve been built in that area 10 or so years ago. No idea what state it’s in now but I know a few of those who’d been at Chargers are now quite influential at Sherwood Wolfhunt (Mansfield) and Sheffield Forgers (version 2.0). 

[The Future is League]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

I think showered with events is a gross exaggeration. Newcastle have done a fantastic job and deserve all the plaudits. I don't think a magic weekend once a year did all that much in all honesty.

I do think the MW has brought some new fans to the game in that area, which is obviously a good thing. Perhaps at a future date having some magic weekends in Sheffield to pique interest in the game there. Just saying.

[Gooleboy]

2 hours ago, Pottsy said:

Hillsborough Hawks

Hoyland Vikings

Dearne Valley Bulldogs

North Derbyshire Chargers/Chesterfield Spires*

Sheffield Forgers

Doncaster Toll Bar

Moorends Marauders

Rotherham Roosters(I think)

Barton Bulldogs

Lincoln City

South Humber Rabbitohs (Grimsby)

Scunthorpe Barbarians 

Derby City

Nottingham Outlaws

Sherwood Wolfhunt

 

I don’t know how many of these clubs are still afloat and I’ve probably forgotten a few but over the past decade or  there have been a lot of clubs in and around the wider South Yorks/North Mids region. 
 

I think a lot of these teams start up with players who are local, and Rugby Union players. The problem is they don't have any RL experience and join such as the Pennine League and play against teams from traditional RL areas and often get beat easily. Then interest wains and they fold up, which is unfortunate. Keeping new Clubs with teams of similar ability is the best hope of them surviving.

[Pottsy]

1 minute ago, Gooleboy said:

I think a lot of these teams start up with players who are local, and Rugby Union players. The problem is they don't have any RL experience and join such as the Pennine League and play against teams from traditional RL areas and often get beat easily. Then interest wains and they fold up, which is unfortunate. Keeping new Clubs with teams of similar ability is the best hope of them surviving.

I can’t honestly recall that being an issue with any of the teams mentioned above. Many of those teams competed in the Yorks/Lincs division of the RLC at one point and more than held their own. Reliance on RU players definitely a factor though.

[DoubleD]

49 minutes ago, Pottsy said:

I think you’re referring to Buxton Bulls. I think Mike Shires from Leeds Akkies was involved there iirc.

With a bit of structure, organisation and joined up thinking, there was definitely something that could’ve been built in that area 10 or so years ago. No idea what state it’s in now but I know a few of those who’d been at Chargers are now quite influential at Sherwood Wolfhunt (Mansfield) and Sheffield Forgers (version 2.0). 

The point you make about volunteers is very valid but also an issue for a number of those teams mentioned is that they a lot were often ‘shell’ clubs with just open age and no roots in the community/infrastructure. You need a constant conveyor belt of players and volunteers to create sustainability. Volunteers often come from kids parents who get drafted in and some find a love for it. With just open age sides, you struggle with both of those. 

The new clubs in Immingham, Bolsover and Bassetlaw appear well structured with junior setups and their own facilities, not reliant on union clubs 

[Pottsy]

6 minutes ago, DoubleD said:

The point you make about volunteers is very valid but also an issue for a number of those teams mentioned is that they a lot were often ‘shell’ clubs with just open age and no roots in the community/infrastructure. You need a constant conveyor belt of players and volunteers to create sustainability. Volunteers often come from kids parents who get drafted in and some find a love for it. With just open age sides, you struggle with both of those. 

The new clubs in Immingham, Bolsover and Bassetlaw appear well structured with junior setups and their own facilities, not reliant on union clubs 

I agree with all of that. We were relatively well structured at Chargers, with a functioning committee and teams at Open Age, u16, u14 and u12.

The problem is, no matter how hard you work to put a proper structure in place, if you lose a couple of key individuals, things can turn around quickly. 

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Pottsy said:

I agree with all of that. We were relatively well structured at Chargers, with a functioning committee and teams at Open Age, u16, u14 and u12.

The problem is, no matter how hard you work to put a proper structure in place, if you lose a couple of key individuals, things can turn around quickly. 

That is so true, so we need to keep adding 'key individuals'.

What do we do to find them? What can be done, to encourage them to step forward, out of the shadows.

This is just one facet of the ''how-to'' guide which needs to be clarified and pushed constantly (along with identifying new players, members, fans, sponsors, etc. ).

In order to prosper and grow a club/local league will need all those things (and to replace them as they mature and die).

So an adequate ''development plan'' and operational system, should have programmes for the recruitment, retention and replacement of all these people in place. 

[Sir Kevin Sinfield]

14 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

That is so true, so we need to keep adding 'key individuals'.

What do we do to find them? What can be done, to encourage them to step forward, out of the shadows.

This is just one facet of the ''how-to'' guide which needs to be clarified and pushed constantly (along with identifying new players, members, fans, sponsors, etc. ).

In order to prosper and grow a club/local league will need all those things (and to replace them as they mature and die).

So an adequate ''development plan'' and operational system, should have programmes for the recruitment, retention and replacement of all these people in place. 

The RLWC 2021 has volunteers as did the 2013 did. Are things done to encourage World Cup volunteers to get involved with local clubs.

[Pottsy]

41 minutes ago, fighting irish said:

That is so true, so we need to keep adding 'key individuals'.

What do we do to find them? What can be done, to encourage them to step forward, out of the shadows.

This is just one facet of the ''how-to'' guide which needs to be clarified and pushed constantly (along with identifying new players, members, fans, sponsors, etc. ).

In order to prosper and grow a club/local league will need all those things (and to replace them as they mature and die).

So an adequate ''development plan'' and operational system, should have programmes for the recruitment, retention and replacement of all these people in place. 

Back when there was plenty of govt funding flying around prior to 2010, the RFL took on lots of ‘volunteer coordinators’ (I can’t remember the exact title). These positions led to a huge rise in the number of ‘registered volunteers’ largely by counting existing volunteers who hadn’t actually been registered previously. What I’m not sure of is how many - if any - new volunteers were generated. 
 

There is a role in this for the RFL and the pro clubs though. The RFL has the expertise in media and event management needed to flush potential volunteers out and bring them together, whilst the clubs have the databases of supporters in different areas. Both could provide expertise and guidance on how to run a club and both could potentially do more to incentivise volunteers to give up their time.

[Tex]

On 13/12/2020 at 13:08, Impartial Observer said:

The work in the NE was helped by two great development officers, sadly they lost their jobs in 2013 due to cutbacks but fortunately there are some great volunteers in that area who carried on the work taking it to where it is now. You can have as many development officers as you like but without the volunteers to help run the clubs they will only last a couple of years. 

There is a massive misconception that the development in the North East has just been bank rolled by Newcastle Thunder, this is not the case at all. They have been able to allocate resources in the form of staff which has supported the growth but it is not all down to them. The game in the NE got a massive boost with the Super League days in 1999, which was just as quickly taken away when the "merger" with Hull went through. Committed volunteers kept their own clubs running with very limited support from the RFL.

In the lead up to the Whole Sport Plan Funding allocation in 2013 there were 3 Full Time Development RFL staff in the North East, with 2 Full Time Talent Devleopment Coaches, roles funded by Performance Dept but as Impartial Observer pointed out all  development staff were lost due to redundancies. 

At the time Gateshead Thunder employed a number of coaches through partnership with Local Authorities, most of who are still involved within the game.. 

Since 2013 the North East has continued to grow and this is mainly due to the volunteers at the community clubs in the region and a united aim to grow the game. There is a group of volunteers who sit on the North East Management Group who run the game on the ground - with support from central RFL staff when required. Newcastle Thunder work alongside the North East Management Group to help create a pathway where a young player from the NE can access the same playing opportunities as a young player growing up in the "Traditional Heartlands". 

There are a number of independent delivery partners who work hard to deliver in schools and support the community clubs alongside the development officers that Thunder employ, funded primarily through Sky Try funding, which of course is aided by hosting Magic Weekend, but there are no free handouts as such from the RFL that have allowed it to happen.

In my opinion, the biggest obstacle for development in other areas is that often there is a mentality of "we'll wait until someone comes along to help us, or someone puts some money into it". The Community Clubs in the North East have their own responsibility for their own growth and survival, the more proactive ones are those that are the strongest, that's no coincidence. 

Some clubs in the North East pay independent delivery partners to do their delivery in the local areas, they don't just wait for it all to be done for them and don't all just get free coaching from Newcastle Thunder Foundation. Not all clubs are thriving, and this is often connected to the lack of volunteers available but on the whole the region is in a much better place than it was and this has been supported by the resources available through the Professional Club. 

Magic Weekend has helped to raise the profile of the sport in the region, and there is correlation between the increase in number of participants in the area but the local community clubs still have to be ready and prepared to deal with this increase. There is a good geographical spread of clubs in what is a pretty saturated region, Football and RU -wise so anyone who wants to play our great game doesn't have to travel too far to find their local club. 

 

[fighting irish]

1 hour ago, Tex said:

There is a massive misconception that the development in the North East has just been bank rolled by Newcastle Thunder, this is not the case at all. They have been able to allocate resources in the form of staff which has supported the growth but it is not all down to them. The game in the NE got a massive boost with the Super League days in 1999, which was just as quickly taken away when the "merger" with Hull went through. Committed volunteers kept their own clubs running with very limited support from the RFL.

In the lead up to the Whole Sport Plan Funding allocation in 2013 there were 3 Full Time Development RFL staff in the North East, with 2 Full Time Talent Devleopment Coaches, roles funded by Performance Dept but as Impartial Observer pointed out all  development staff were lost due to redundancies. 

At the time Gateshead Thunder employed a number of coaches through partnership with Local Authorities, most of who are still involved within the game.. 

Since 2013 the North East has continued to grow and this is mainly due to the volunteers at the community clubs in the region and a united aim to grow the game. There is a group of volunteers who sit on the North East Management Group who run the game on the ground - with support from central RFL staff when required. Newcastle Thunder work alongside the North East Management Group to help create a pathway where a young player from the NE can access the same playing opportunities as a young player growing up in the "Traditional Heartlands". 

There are a number of independent delivery partners who work hard to deliver in schools and support the community clubs alongside the development officers that Thunder employ, funded primarily through Sky Try funding, which of course is aided by hosting Magic Weekend, but there are no free handouts as such from the RFL that have allowed it to happen.

In my opinion, the biggest obstacle for development in other areas is that often there is a mentality of "we'll wait until someone comes along to help us, or someone puts some money into it". The Community Clubs in the North East have their own responsibility for their own growth and survival, the more proactive ones are those that are the strongest, that's no coincidence. 

Some clubs in the North East pay independent delivery partners to do their delivery in the local areas, they don't just wait for it all to be done for them and don't all just get free coaching from Newcastle Thunder Foundation. Not all clubs are thriving, and this is often connected to the lack of volunteers available but on the whole the region is in a much better place than it was and this has been supported by the resources available through the Professional Club. 

Magic Weekend has helped to raise the profile of the sport in the region, and there is correlation between the increase in number of participants in the area but the local community clubs still have to be ready and prepared to deal with this increase. There is a good geographical spread of clubs in what is a pretty saturated region, Football and RU -wise so anyone who wants to play our great game doesn't have to travel too far to find their local club. 

 

Thank you for showing what can be done, when people decide they will do it.

It is this attitude which is missing in the ''we'll wait until someone comes along to help us, or someone puts some money into it'' areas.

I'm just glad that the achievements in the North East are becoming widespread knowledge and hopefully, the rest of the game will accept that they ''ought'' to be doing the same thing.

If we're not getting the results we want, do something different, instead of whining and wondering why the game is going backwards.

Congratulations to everyone up there who's involved in this work. 

What always makes me laugh, is when people ask what motivates these volunteers.

It's clear anyone asking that question just doesn't get it.

The motivation is plain and simply the joy of being involved in this great game. 

[Impartial Observer]

The clubs in the NE see the bigger picture and tend to help each other out for the good of the game where as this doesn't happen all the time in the heartlands where for some clubs it is win at all costs. 

[PhilCarrington]

On 13/12/2020 at 15:23, Gooleboy said:

I think a lot of these teams start up with players who are local, and Rugby Union players. The problem is they don't have any RL experience and join such as the Pennine League and play against teams from traditional RL areas and often get beat easily. Then interest wains and they fold up, which is unfortunate. Keeping new Clubs with teams of similar ability is the best hope of them surviving.

 

On 13/12/2020 at 15:26, Pottsy said:

I can’t honestly recall that being an issue with any of the teams mentioned above. Many of those teams competed in the Yorks/Lincs division of the RLC at one point and more than held their own. Reliance on RU players definitely a factor though.

The RLC was a great breeding ground and allowed clubs to develop. Then the RFL started to use it as a means to reduce BARLA influence and move to summer, putting clubs on the M62 corridor into the RLC; few clubs from before that point are with us now. It was a massive mistake. Doubtless some would have gone anyway, but I'm sure no where near as many. The balkanisation of the RLC into the regional leagues also made it a lot harder for clubs to assess their real strength, cross-conference games in the RLC helped with that. 

[PJJ]

On 13/12/2020 at 08:20, Eddie said:

Sheffield is an obvious place for the RFL to target, if they have the money or will. I lived there in the 90s and RL definitely could have become the second sport in the city. Sadly the Eagles were shat on with the ‘merger’ and also more recently with the removal of development officer in the city. That said there are still two thriving community clubs in the city as well as the Eagles so all is not lost. 
 

Liverpool would be a money pit for anyone I’m afraid. If Saints wanted to target a new area I’d go more in the direction of Ormskirk and Southport. 

Wigan have targeted Southport for a while. They used to run summer camps for kids at Southport RUFC. Not sure if they still do. I have friends whose kids go to Southport RUFC and have taken part. They got taken to a game with free tickets for the parents as well.

[HarrogateKnights]

On 13/12/2020 at 07:28, Cumbrian Mackem said:

At grassroots level. What with the fantastic progress being made in the north east and also with the introduction or re-introduction of grassroots RL in towns like goole and Harrogate could we not replicate this in places like Preston, Blackburn, Stockport, Barnsley and Lancaster etc?

Theres still so much unexplored territory within and just outside of the game’s historic “heartland” in terms of untapped talent and potential new fans for our game.

I totally agree with the areas mentioned above. I setup the new team in Harrogate (Harrogate Fire Ants) although support was easy to come by as being a York City Knights fan myself I was always going to turn to their foundation for help however the ground work is still done by the club and rightly so. The main problem I found is facilities which seems daft when you think of Harrogate and the 80 acres of open parkland called the Stray however being a spa town most of this is boggy and used by footballers the other key times. The council were no help as all the eggs are in the football basket and Rugby Union is so inbredded into the culture that they don't come with open arms. We, through a tip off have ended up at the side of Harrogate least likely to have Rugby league but one side Rossett Sports Centre has 4G pitch hire and across the street Ashville Sports Centre (Part of the independent school Ashville College) has amazing facilities including 7 full sized rugby union pitches, 2 indoor sports halls, an all weather pitch and gym with swimming pool. The Director of Rugby (Union) at the school is former Kiwi International Gary Mercer and he has been great in bringing a plan together with YCK Foundation and ourselves. They have players that only play 7s union tournaments during the spring so we have the rest and some of them between March and August every year which will be a great boost for our numbers that want to give it a try. 

We have planned on the "what next generation" the chances are most of the kids will go to uni but hopefully with an awareness of the sport where they might decide to pick it up there and now pathways are being developed in Unis especially Loughborough to Cov etc we hope if we don't benefit directly playing numbers will increase overall. Alot of community clubs forget that community isn't just their team but an overall picture. We aim to have player pathways into the NCL local clubs as well as other ways players that can and want to play at a higher level have the option to do so. We are working at a county level rather than region too so it allows for less travel. It takes alot of committed people to get it off the ground but a badge and name is one thing the club and players are something different 

[HarrogateKnights]

14 minutes ago, Celt said:

Brilliant. Love this.

(Sad to see guys like Mercer working in union though... Yet another example of lost talent. His son plays age grade union for Scotland too if I remember right).

This particular school are well funded, they recently ploughed £3.2 million into upgrading their gym facilities. But you are right definitely sad that Union have him although it will be fantastic for our development for any of his input that we can get! We also have Garry Atkins (Former KR amongst others as honourary VP too) The irony is that the Private School have the cheaper facility hire and are able to offer us corporate gym rates too (£25 per month!) I am not sure how many sons he has but I know Zach plays for Bath RU now. Gary did do a stint at Scotland RU academy after coaching league at 'Fax and Cas. From a women's point of view Fran Goldthorp now of Rhinos is a former pupil and England fringe player! 

[Damien]

As an aside Gary Mercer was one tough fella as a player.

[HarrogateKnights]

59 minutes ago, Damien said:

As an aside Gary Mercer was one tough fella as a player.

Definitely! 

[DoubleD]

2 hours ago, HarrogateKnights said:

I totally agree with the areas mentioned above. I setup the new team in Harrogate (Harrogate Fire Ants) although support was easy to come by as being a York City Knights fan myself I was always going to turn to their foundation for help however the ground work is still done by the club and rightly so. The main problem I found is facilities which seems daft when you think of Harrogate and the 80 acres of open parkland called the Stray however being a spa town most of this is boggy and used by footballers the other key times. The council were no help as all the eggs are in the football basket and Rugby Union is so inbredded into the culture that they don't come with open arms. We, through a tip off have ended up at the side of Harrogate least likely to have Rugby league but one side Rossett Sports Centre has 4G pitch hire and across the street Ashville Sports Centre (Part of the independent school Ashville College) has amazing facilities including 7 full sized rugby union pitches, 2 indoor sports halls, an all weather pitch and gym with swimming pool. The Director of Rugby (Union) at the school is former Kiwi International Gary Mercer and he has been great in bringing a plan together with YCK Foundation and ourselves. They have players that only play 7s union tournaments during the spring so we have the rest and some of them between March and August every year which will be a great boost for our numbers that want to give it a try. 

We have planned on the "what next generation" the chances are most of the kids will go to uni but hopefully with an awareness of the sport where they might decide to pick it up there and now pathways are being developed in Unis especially Loughborough to Cov etc we hope if we don't benefit directly playing numbers will increase overall. Alot of community clubs forget that community isn't just their team but an overall picture. We aim to have player pathways into the NCL local clubs as well as other ways players that can and want to play at a higher level have the option to do so. We are working at a county level rather than region too so it allows for less travel. It takes alot of committed people to get it off the ground but a badge and name is one thing the club and players are something different 

Thanks, I had heard about the Fire Ants but nice to get more detail. I’ve still got relatives in the Gate so do visit regularly. Whilst much more union than league, unlike somewhere like Wetherby which leans the right way, I always found there was an appreciation of TGG amongst many there. What age groups are you running and what leagues will you be in? 

[HarrogateKnights]

4 hours ago, DoubleD said:

Thanks, I had heard about the Fire Ants but nice to get more detail. I’ve still got relatives in the Gate so do visit regularly. Whilst much more union than league, unlike somewhere like Wetherby which leans the right way, I always found there was an appreciation of TGG amongst many there. What age groups are you running and what leagues will you be in? 

We have open age men's and women's in the Yorkshire leagues alongside X-league as the minimal contact option which is more social. Our juniors we are starting with U18, U15, U13 & U11s with YCK foundation helping running schools Rugby League. We have an open invite to any player from Ashville college with an introduction to League session if we have enough numbers ready. 

Initially we have made the call not to play the juniors in a league. They have the option of up to 2 sessions a week training one mid week and one weekend. Where we will be using our coaches to develop the skills they have learnt at school. However YCK foundation will be hosting North Yorkshire "expansion festivals" likely to be in 9s format so we can attend them. The reason for not applying for a league for our juniors is mainly due to travel, from Harrogate we could be traveling to Hull, Sheffield or Siddal although these are all great clubs in their own right it's close on 90 mins each way journey time. So for 3 hours travel with 1 hour playing time we would prefer to keep things in our bubble where we concentrate on the key skills each week with the reward of potentially playing a mixed team from Harrogate Schools RL or friendlies from York based clubs. Developing players by introducing them to 4v4 game like scenarios etc and playing them through with ability to stop and assess so the players get a proper understanding of game play and constructive feedback. 

 

[Northern Eel]

At Bassetlaw, Immingham and Bolsover, the age groups deliberately start at U6s. They are then, first and foremost, rugby league players. What they choose to do beyond that is up to them, but it is a great opportunity for the club to back themselves (and the sport) to keep them. 

[Nate90]

The second tier looks more interesting than the Super League next year. Looks at the geographical spread

[HarrogateKnights]

1 hour ago, Northern Eel said:

At Bassetlaw, Immingham and Bolsover, the age groups deliberately start at U6s. They are then, first and foremost, rugby league players. What they choose to do beyond that is up to them, but it is a great opportunity for the club to back themselves (and the sport) to keep them. 

At Ashville College they have 2 Union teams at every age group from U5s to U18s we are going to see how many we integrate into our system and as school rugby league takes off. 2 of the high schools we are going into don't have any Rugby on the curriculum at the moment so we see them as big potential with 2 primary schools in the same boat. Then we have kids at Ashville not playing much rugby if any between March and September we have a big market to develop into even if they don't stay with us but play at other clubs I am happy to get the sport out there and more awareness.