Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said: If no teams took fans away from home it would be terrible for SL. Atmospheres would be much worse and whilst teams shouldn't rely on away fans for income, the product suffers when attendances are lower and it is both visible and audible on TV. I cant think of many, if any, SL clubs who can regularly sell out their home games even with away fans, let alone without. There are probably a handful of fixtures where this would happen... Away fans are a plus for the league. Not the most important criteria but a definite positive and should be viewed as such. Both Catalans and TWP have made a thing about the number of visiting away fans that they will have into their cities visiting from the SL clubs. These are the non-m62 teams who absolutely see the benefit of these travelling fans and part of their approach is to make themselves attractive to away fans - but apparently its just a backward Northern thing to like away fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Hall Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 9 hours ago, GUBRATS said: So you believe away fans are very important ? Yes, but building your own fan base is importanter http://www.alldesignandprint.co.uk Printing & Graphic Design with Nationwide Service Programmes | Leaflets | Cards | Banners & Flags | Letterheads | Tickets | Magazines | Folders | Brand Identity plus much more Official Matchday Programme Print & Design Partner to York City Knights, Heworth ARLFC, York Acorn RLFC & Hunslet RLFC Official Player Sponsor of Marcus Stock for the 2020 Season Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 hours ago, Dave T said: Both Catalans and TWP have made a thing about the number of visiting away fans that they will have into their cities visiting from the SL clubs. These are the non-m62 teams who absolutely see the benefit of these travelling fans and part of their approach is to make themselves attractive to away fans - but apparently its just a backward Northern thing to like away fans. Once again, and god this is painful, nobody, literally nobody is saying away fans are a bad thing. And, again, and god this is painful, nobody is saying there isn't some money to be made off them. But ... … are you ready? ... we already have a situation where rugby league is flogging itself to the same people time and time again. From Magic to the Challenge Cup to the Grand Final, we are selling to the same people. And those same people are the same ones who are supposed to be the cash cows as visitors to clubs for 13 rounds of the year. An obsession with away fans - which, to be fair, is really only held by a handful of people on here in any meaningful sense - speaks to that problem. Our reach is diminishing. Other sports are leaving us behind. Desperately hoping to address budget issues through away numbers to an extent that clubs without significant travelling support could be put at a disadvantage - and tell me how you square any expansion with that - is a symptom of our malaise. Lastly, Toronto went bust. Best not use them as an example of good practice when it comes to cashflow. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 On 15/12/2020 at 10:11, gingerjon said: Well, have you said sorry for the government of entirely different country removing the property of the rugby league there in the 1930s? That didn't happen. It was the 1940s. "We'll sell you a seat .... but you'll only need the edge of it!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 7 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Once again, and god this is painful, nobody, literally nobody is saying away fans are a bad thing. And, again, and god this is painful, nobody is saying there isn't some money to be made off them. But ... … are you ready? ... we already have a situation where rugby league is flogging itself to the same people time and time again. From Magic to the Challenge Cup to the Grand Final, we are selling to the same people. And those same people are the same ones who are supposed to be the cash cows as visitors to clubs for 13 rounds of the year. An obsession with away fans - which, to be fair, is really only held by a handful of people on here in any meaningful sense - speaks to that problem. Our reach is diminishing. Other sports are leaving us behind. Desperately hoping to address budget issues through away numbers to an extent that clubs without significant travelling support could be put at a disadvantage - and tell me how you square any expansion with that - is a symptom of our malaise. Lastly, Toronto went bust. Best not use them as an example of good practice when it comes to cashflow. I point you in the direction of Andy Mazey's tweet yesterday ( I think) where he made reference to clubs will miss Leigh's travelling support and the income that brings. He got pounced on and plenty told him very vocally that the clubs should focus on their own fans and not away fans. Away fans has now become one of those subjects that absolutely has negative connotations - I mean this thread even existing is a good example of that. It's a bit like complaining that clubs shouldn't be worrying about selling branded pyjamas at Christmas because we should focus on season tickets. All these things can exist alongside each other. But against this backdrop of people claiming we make too many decisions with away fans being a core factor, the evidence doesn't support that. Newcastle were promoted to the Championship - there could probably have been a better decision with away fans as a core factor. Catalans, PSG, Gateshead, London, Crusaders, TWP were all admitted to SL when we knew they would bring few away fans to clubs. And whilst many have failed, I completely disagree with any link to them not providing away fans. IMHO it's a complete non-issue, I think it's something that has been picked up on as a useful tool to bash existing clubs and portray them as small time. I mean repeat games were attributed to being due to away fans in this thread, when that doesn't even make sense. It gives more games overall for income from Sky, fans (total), ancillary sales etc. but it is claimed it is away fans that help to drive this decision. It's a nothing issue, the points you raise above are all relevant, but not really to the away fans argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 25 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Once again, and god this is painful, nobody, literally nobody is saying away fans are a bad thing. And, again, and god this is painful, nobody is saying there isn't some money to be made off them. But ... … are you ready? ... we already have a situation where rugby league is flogging itself to the same people time and time again. From Magic to the Challenge Cup to the Grand Final, we are selling to the same people. And those same people are the same ones who are supposed to be the cash cows as visitors to clubs for 13 rounds of the year. An obsession with away fans - which, to be fair, is really only held by a handful of people on here in any meaningful sense - speaks to that problem. Our reach is diminishing. Other sports are leaving us behind. Desperately hoping to address budget issues through away numbers to an extent that clubs without significant travelling support could be put at a disadvantage - and tell me how you square any expansion with that - is a symptom of our malaise. Lastly, Toronto went bust. Best not use them as an example of good practice when it comes to cashflow. There is an added issue that the game has tonnes of spare capacity. All stadiums have tonnes of spare seats. Worrying about away fans who visit once a year makes no sense for clubs struggling to attract home fans. It is, quite frankly, crazy that which club brings an extra few hundred away fans is an issue for clubs failing to bring in thousands of home fans. Its almost literally like watching the game scramble around on the floor for a few pounds in change whilst ten pound notes float away. In only matches attendend so thats ticket food and drink etc. So not even including merchandise. 1 season ticket holder is worth 13/14 away fans. Yet here we are talking about which club brought 500 and which 700 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Just now, Scotchy1 said: There is an added issue that the game has tonnes of spare capacity. All stadiums have tonnes of spare seats. Worrying about away fans who visit once a year makes no sense for clubs struggling to attract home fans. It is, quite frankly, crazy that which club brings an extra few hundred away fans is an issue for clubs failing to bring in thousands of home fans. Its almost literally like watching the game scramble around on the floor for a few pounds in change whilst ten pound notes float away. In only matches attendend so thats ticket food and drink etc. So not even including merchandise. 1 season ticket holder is worth 13/14 away fans. Yet here we are talking about which club brought 500 and which 700 We aren't though are we really? I mean this thread was just brought up out of the blue to criticise people talking about away fans, when they weren't talking about away fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dave T said: We aren't though are we really? I mean this thread was just brought up out of the blue to criticise people talking about away fans, when they weren't talking about away fans. Away fans are talked about a lot. And its not really out of the blue. Its mentioned plenty on the promotion thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said: Away fans are talked about a lot. And its not really out of the blue. Its mentioned plenty on the promotion thread Aye, we have a three page thread here about them which was not started by people singing the praises of them. It's a staged thread to bash flatcappers. We also discuss catering, kit designs, grounds, player development etc. It's all valid, it is all important to a successful club, I'm not sure why away fans has become so frowned upon as a subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Dave T said: Aye, we have a three page thread here about them which was not started by people singing the praises of them. It's a staged thread to bash flatcappers. We also discuss catering, kit designs, grounds, player development etc. It's all valid, it is all important to a successful club, I'm not sure why away fans has become so frowned upon as a subject. Mainly because most people involved argue in ridiculously bad faith. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmichaelsays Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dave T said: We also discuss catering, kit designs, grounds, player development etc. It's all valid, it is all important to a successful club, I'm not sure why away fans has become so frowned upon as a subject. Because when the debate is framed as: "My club should be in Super League because we bring <insert well-considered list of tangible and intangible benefits that could have wide-ranging benefits for the competition>" vs "My club should be in Super League because we have <insert inflated number here> away fans!" It's not unfair to suggest that the second one as a pretty weak argument. Oh, and my point about loop fixtures was slightly more nuanced than "away fans are the reason we have loop games".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 13 hours ago, yipyee said: Wrong, I think this year has proven that the players are playing to win and not to entertain fans. Clubs would still exist without fans, it would also be professional for the clubs with wealthy benefactors. There is no logic to what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, gingerjon said: Mainly because most people involved argue in ridiculously bad faith. We can't keep calling things bad faith when we disagree with them. If somebody feels that away fans is really important and should be a key factor in who is in the league, that is their opinion, no matter how much you or I may find that laughable or disagree with it. I think it is unfair to dismiss people's viewpoints in this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 11 minutes ago, Dave T said: Aye, we have a three page thread here about them which was not started by people singing the praises of them. It's a staged thread to bash flatcappers. We also discuss catering, kit designs, grounds, player development etc. It's all valid, it is all important to a successful club, I'm not sure why away fans has become so frowned upon as a subject. Exactly. There are unfortunately some posters who blame us for Brexit and voting in Boris. As you say, the away fans issue is just one of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 5 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said: Because when the debate is framed as: "My club should be in Super League because we bring <insert well-considered list of tangible and intangible benefits that could have wide-ranging benefits for the competition>" vs "My club should be in Super League because we have <insert inflated number here> away fans!" It's not unfair to suggest that the second one as a pretty weak argument. Oh, and my point about loop fixtures was slightly more nuanced than "away fans are the reason we have loop games".... But if that is what some people genuinely believe, then they can have that viewpoint. If it is so ludicrous (which I think it is) then it easily gets shot down. Some people make the same point on things like a ground - some people get hung up on one point. I mean some people are obsessed with Super League being effectively a stadium competition and care little about the other stuff. They'd kick Cas out tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Prince Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 8 hours ago, MattSantos said: Absolutely. The fixtures could help, too. Hull v Wigan on a Thursday night isn't ideal. Thursdays are clearly a bad choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Just now, Johnoco said: This is getting waayyy too complicated. At the heart of it is surely that away fans should be seen as a *bonus* and not a requirement of being in the league or not? Isn't that it? Pretty much yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 4 minutes ago, Johnoco said: This is getting waayyy too complicated. At the heart of it is surely that away fans should be seen as a *bonus* and not a requirement of being in the league or not? Isn't that it? Yup, and from memory (I could be wrong) I don't think any criteria for any round of licensing or this latest SL selection process has highlighted away fans as any kind of criteria. I haven't read every bit of detail though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niels Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 A bonus that in these days of financial restriction is extremely relevant. It's the same principle of restaurants, hotels etc. More people in groups is more money. In reality any club, group that generates this will be advantaged, whether directly or indirectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 29 minutes ago, Dave T said: Aye, we have a three page thread here about them which was not started by people singing the praises of them. It's a staged thread to bash flatcappers. We also discuss catering, kit designs, grounds, player development etc. It's all valid, it is all important to a successful club, I'm not sure why away fans has become so frowned upon as a subject. Because it's used by flatcappers to bash expansion. The only reasons it is every really mentioned is to either big up a heartland club or bash an expansion club. It annoys people because its representative of the small time, penny pinching thinking that frustrates fans. Its really not even 30 year old but victorian age thinking to focus on it and the fact is a factor is pretty telling of the position the game is in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 14 minutes ago, Johnoco said: I don’t remember it being a criteria during licensing either. I think it’s possibly a fan generated thing, whereby people have said ‘Toronto/Catalans/London don’t bring any away fans’ and it sort of became a thing from there. Just a guess though.... Aye, that's exactly what it is. We get fans believing all sorts of crazy reasons why certain teams should be in whatever comp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 10 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said: Because it's used by flatcappers to bash expansion. The only reasons it is every really mentioned is to either big up a heartland club or bash an expansion club. It annoys people because its representative of the small time, penny pinching thinking that frustrates fans. Its really not even 30 year old but victorian age thinking to focus on it and the fact is a factor is pretty telling of the position the game is in. Maybe, I just don't really see it. I mean discussion about away fans has always been a thing and a bit of a willy wangling contest. Remember when Hull KR used to get mocked about their legendary away followings that they used to boast about? I miss the light-heartedness of those days. The other important thing here is not to take fans spouting off on discussion forums too seriously. People may moan about Catalans' lack of away following, but these flatcappers still go to these games, pay their money and watch games vs Catalans, many clubs embrace it and return some decent crowds for the games too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 Just now, Dave T said: Maybe, I just don't really see it. I mean discussion about away fans has always been a thing and a bit of a willy wangling contest. Remember when Hull KR used to get mocked about their legendary away followings that they used to boast about? I miss the light-heartedness of those days. The other important thing here is not to take fans spouting off on discussion forums too seriously. People may moan about Catalans' lack of away following, but these flatcappers still go to these games, pay their money and watch games vs Catalans, many clubs embrace it and return some decent crowds for the games too. Thats really the only context it is brought up in Heartland club A will bring more away fans therefore they are good Expansion club A aren't going to bring any away fans therefor they are rubbish. There really is no other time it's brought up. It's such an insignificant thing there's no other reason to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 23 minutes ago, Johnoco said: I don’t remember it being a criteria during licensing either. I think it’s possibly a fan generated thing, whereby people have said ‘Toronto/Catalans/London don’t bring any away fans’ and it sort of became a thing from there. Just a guess though.... It definitely used to be a stick to beat London - average journey time to an away game being four hours one way - when set against teams who made a journey that long once a year. It seems to have expanded a bit since then. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 16, 2020 Share Posted December 16, 2020 2 minutes ago, Scotchy1 said: Thats really the only context it is brought up in Heartland club A will bring more away fans therefore they are good Expansion club A aren't going to bring any away fans therefor they are rubbish. There really is no other time it's brought up. It's such an insignificant thing there's no other reason to Nah, existing clubs get bashed too. I think it's Harry who still criticises Warrington for how many fans we took to LSV, Saints fans regularly boast about their following to DW, and Wire fans used to have a superiority complex about their away fans (until they started trashing Catalans). I mean there are even chants about levels of away support, used in other sports too. Discussion about fan base has been around for years, and is likely to still be around for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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