Sky Sports halves offer for TV rights

[iffleyox]

4 minutes ago, emesssea said:

Hmm, for people I know and including myself the Argentinian accent is the worst... I always joke they're the scottish accent of spanish speaking countries. I've even met Argentinians, who I didn't know were Argentinian at first, who when speaking in spanish I assumed it was there second language and they were speaking with their american accent. Where as at least among Latin Americans, the Colombian accent is considered the 'cleanest'.

An Argentine friend of mine described Argentinians as 'a race of Italians, living in South America, speaking Spanish and convinced they're English'

[Big Picture]

6 hours ago, sweaty craiq said:

So 25% lower!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On a very small sample of very small crowds from a club which closed down after that season, so it's not necessarily all that indicative.  I've since looked at the 2017, 2018 and 2019 home crowds for Oxford, Coventry, Gloucester, Hemel, London Skolars and South/West Wales to get a better indication from a broader sample.

The results were: 54-match average against non-traditional clubs 290.3, 91-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford included 316.1, 86-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford excluded 279.0.  That's a very marginal difference indeed.

6 hours ago, GUBRATS said:

So cheap tickets is your answer to the games problems ?

Cheap tickets for students who have little money to spend on such things but who in time will go on to good careers earning good incomes is a great way to introduce them to the sport and turn them into lifelong customers.  If that is achieved, then when they're earning those good incomes they'll likely keep paying money into the sport but at regular prices rather than special student prices.

[emesssea]

4 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

An Argentine friend of mine described Argentinians as 'a race of Italians, living in South America, speaking Spanish and convinced they're English'

Haha, I think thats a good summary. I think I read somewhere 2/3rd of Argentinians are of Italian descent and that language contributed greatly to their dialect/accent. 

Also had a colleague who went to Chile for work and he said the Chileans he met were jokingly self deprecating in how they have butchered the spanish language and no one can understand them

[iffleyox]

8 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On a very small sample of very small crowds from a club which closed down after that season, so it's not necessarily all that indicative.  I've since looked at the 2017, 2018 and 2019 home crowds for Oxford, Coventry, Gloucester, Hemel, London Skolars and South/West Wales to get a better indication from a broader sample.

The results were: 54-match average against non-traditional clubs 290.3, 91-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford included 316.1, 86-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford excluded 279.0.  That's a very marginal difference indeed.

Unless you've got access to some very good stats, how are you accounting for fluctuations in numbers of away fans? Remember those numbers you're looking at are almost certainly total gates, not total home gates. Remember (there's a whole tedious thread on it) the away fans concept in England.

Apologies by the way if you're English, difficult to keep up with people's backstories across a whole forum!

[Big Picture]

1 minute ago, iffleyox said:

Unless you've got access to some very good stats, how are you accounting for fluctuations in numbers of away fans? Remember those numbers you're looking at are total gates, not total home gates. Remember (there's a whole tedious thread on it) the away fans concept in England.

Apologies by the way if you're English, difficult to keep up with people's backstories across a whole forum!

I have no information on numbers of "away fans" other than Bradford likely taking more along with them than the likes of Hunslet, Oldham etc., that's why I calculated the averages with Bradford both included and excluded.  I got the crowd numbers from Wikipedia. 

[Eddie]

58 minutes ago, GUBRATS said:

So cheap tickets is your answer to the games problems ?

 

Not in the slightest. 

[iffleyox]

15 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On a very small sample of very small crowds from a club which closed down after that season, so it's not necessarily all that indicative.  I've since looked at the 2017, 2018 and 2019 home crowds for Oxford, Coventry, Gloucester, Hemel, London Skolars and South/West Wales to get a better indication from a broader sample.

Also, and this is more for your information than nitpicking, I'd be careful with that sample of League 1 expansion clubs over a period that might politely be called 'the anarchy.'

Cov and Skolars are reasonable bets over the time period. Hemel and GAG were basket cases in a tailspin that saw their eventual demise as semi-pro league members, and (miraculously though they still carry on) for much of that period Scorpions/Ironmen/Raiders probably wore the luminous tabard of 'club most likely not to see out the season.'*

Probably fairer, even though it doesn't change the numbers much, to look at 2013,14,15 - no one was on the point of collapse then.

 

*I think I'm right (from memory) that Oxford - the first to fold - also never finished bottom in any season.

[Scotchy1]

21 minutes ago, emesssea said:

Hmm, for people I know and including myself the Argentinian accent is the worst... I always joke they're the scottish accent of spanish speaking countries. I've even met Argentinians, who I didn't know were Argentinian at first, who when speaking in spanish I assumed it was there second language and they were speaking with their american accent. Where as at least among Latin Americans, the Colombian accent is considered the 'cleanest'.

She loves a Scottish accent too so maybe it's just her.

I've barely got past "dos cerveza por favor" so I have no idea

[GUBRATS]

16 minutes ago, Big Picture said:

On a very small sample of very small crowds from a club which closed down after that season, so it's not necessarily all that indicative.  I've since looked at the 2017, 2018 and 2019 home crowds for Oxford, Coventry, Gloucester, Hemel, London Skolars and South/West Wales to get a better indication from a broader sample.

The results were: 54-match average against non-traditional clubs 290.3, 91-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford included 316.1, 86-match average against traditional clubs with Bradford excluded 279.0.  That's a very marginal difference indeed.

Cheap tickets for students who have little money to spend on such things but who in time will go onto good careers earning good incomes is a great way to introduce them the the sport and turn them into lifelong customers.  If that is achieved, then when they're earning those good incomes they'll likely keep paying money into the sport but at regular prices rather than special student prices.

And set up clubs in big cities all over the world

[gingerjon]

35 minutes ago, emesssea said:

Hmm, for people I know and including myself the Argentinian accent is the worst... I always joke they're the scottish accent of spanish speaking countries. I've even met Argentinians, who I didn't know were Argentinian at first, who when speaking in spanish I assumed it was there second language and they were speaking with their american accent. Where as at least among Latin Americans, the Colombian accent is considered the 'cleanest'.

This is good to know because Tiny Ginger’s Spanish teacher is Colombian.

[Big Picture]

21 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

Also, and this is more for your information than nitpicking, I'd be careful with that sample of League 1 expansion clubs over a period that might politely be called 'the anarchy.'

Cov and Skolars are reasonable bets over the time period. Hemel and GAG were basket cases in a tailspin that saw their eventual demise as semi-pro league members, and (miraculously though they still carry on) for much of that period Scorpions/Ironmen/Raiders probably wore the luminous tabard of 'club most likely not to see out the season.'

Probably fairer, even though it doesn't change the numbers much, to look at 2013,14,15 - no one was on the point of collapse then.

Thanks for the suggestion.  Wikipedia has the figures for 2013 and 2014 but not 2015, so I added the 2013 and 2014 crowds to the rest and recalculated.

The results: 116-match average against non-traditional clubs 280.49, 113-match average against traditional clubs minus Bradford 317.67 and 117-match average with Bradford included 340.48.

 

[Scotchy1]

35 minutes ago, iffleyox said:

welcome to the dream as sold to the boards/founders/promoters of Hemel, Oxford, and GAG...

It worked, it really did, for a whole season - before suddenly what League 1 was for was changed again...

I think the current situation will call for something of a rationalisation within the lower league (and its shocking how many are ready to just say goodbye to L1)

If I were the expansion clubs in L1 I would be knocking on the door on the SL big boys and just asking what can we do for you. You want feeder clubs? We can do that. Give us your 19/20/21 year olds and a few old stagers and a bit of money, we need players you need somewhere for them to play. 

You want expanded academies? Brilliant we can do that, give us some help with  coaching and scouting etc and we can basically run a second academy for you. 

You want an incubator for expansion sides? Wonderful let us call ourselves super league 2, give us a few preseason games against you and we would love to do that.

You want our TV rights as filler? Fine, sounds good. No-ones buying them anyway. It would be good for us to have them for our fans. Give each of us an on the road game every year, split the profits and they're yours.

L1 clubs aren't competing with SL, they should be working together and sharing resources finding efficiencies and building 

[DC77]

8 hours ago, redjonn said:

mmmm their was a time when having blokes kicking 7 shades of whatever out of the creative players was part and parcel of soccer - every team had at least one or more of that enforcer.  Many bemoaned the changes or applying of rules/laws that  drove out of that type of player.   The game flourish's so much more because of losing those type of "limited" players and the watching culture of fans and what they want as a result changed.

The focus on collisions/a bash seems somewhat similar to me from the wider playing perspective.  We need allow creative players more scope or protection similar to how soccer moved the game on.... despite the British soccer fans addiction at the time to the rugged hackers of yesteryear,

All true. The like of Best and Maradona got booted from pillar to post (the Maradona hand of god game for example, prior to his two goals he received shocking treatment from England including defender Terry Fenwick punching him in the face off the ball, which makes what Maradona did with his fist later on much more justified). 

Ron Harris trying to take out Best when he was clean through on goal, and Best riding the challenge before scoring. Pele literally got kicked out of the ‘66 World Cup and vowed never to play in another one. The treatment these players got only elevates them.

Agree with your sentiment entirely with regards to allowing the more creative players in RL shine. How that would be done is the big question though.

[DC77]

6 hours ago, iffleyox said:

In fairness, I wasn't saying they actively don't like it - I was suggesting that they don't care either way. It's not 'I hate rugby league'  so much as 'I'm not interested, any more than I am in model railways, amateur dramatics or crown green bowls'

I think you’re right on this. I lived in the two major cities in the western M62, Liverpool and Manchester, and never heard any hostility towards RL (bar Scousers saying Wools, a comment which was geared towards geography rather than the sport). They know it exists, they aren’t blind, but there are other interests. 

If you aren’t from a RL area, so don’t have that built in geographic cultural attachment, the sport has to appeal to you in other ways. For me the biggest pull would be creative, eye catching play. Unfortunately there just isn’t enough of it. It’s also scarce in RU, but RU has that cultural attachment with your nation being represented (so for instance, I’d watch Ireland in the Six Nations, even though watching Ireland now is nowhere near as enjoyable as when O’Driscoll first appeared). I’d assume the Welsh feel the same, and the French, fans of teams once renowned for flair who now serve up an 80 minute grind.

 

[Oxford]

http://www.leaguefreak.com/nigel-owens-reveals-three-ways-for-referees-to-make-rugby-more-exciting-48119/

[Damien]

49 minutes ago, Oxford said:

http://www.leaguefreak.com/nigel-owens-reveals-three-ways-for-referees-to-make-rugby-more-exciting-48119/

1. Send off two players from each team preferably those two tall ones that just jump.

2. Penalise anyone that attempts to form a ruck or contests the ball from the tackled player.

3. Due to those tall ones that just jump being sent off just have a scrum instead of those stupid lineout things.

[Rupert Prince]

On 20/12/2020 at 22:22, Tommygilf said:

The offer on the table is currently half of the current TV deal, Elstone has stated no other ambitions for what he would do with any PE money, every other PE investment into sports has gone to the constituent teams, it doesn't take a genius to work out

The deal for Premiership Rugby, which has 13 teams but 12 in the division, gives CVC 'up to' 45% of revenue above a ratchet figure.  So the incentive is to increase revenues. 

As far as the investment money its been formally said that the money is not to go on wages, but on facilities and development and on the wider development of the game.  Now obviously you could argue that this is a lot of pokies, but debating on these future events is a pointless deliberation.

Our bottom line is that we need investment.  If it came from Elon Musk I'd settle for that.  But frankly I would look through the other end of the telescope - why would any investor want to offer anything to us if our game is determined to be moribund? 

The purpose of investment would be to revitalise our game.  Revitalise.  That means change.  Doing nothing is not an option.  Unless we embrace change... the change in the structure of the game (not just worrying about 6-again and 2 points for drop goals etc), then we will continue to be repeat the same mistakes all over and over again.

[northamptoncougar]

Is there not an option to tell Sky to go forth and multiply? 

Halving the offer is a slow death for the sport, why accept death by 1000 cuts and just take the hangman’s noose and start again?

RL / SL cannot operate on that figure so why bother trying, I’d rather see the sport go back to part time than pander to these planks. 
 

At the end of the day we offer more to Sky as a sport than just Burnley FC and if they can’t accept that sod them.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

The inevitable consequence of small-minded, pathetic leadership over 10+ years, with a bizarre obsession about how 800 fans of a small village in the north feels about things rather than looking for new, attractive markets to create growth and some value

 

Well done everyone, well done 

 

 

[GUBRATS]

31 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The inevitable consequence of small-minded, pathetic leadership over 10+ years, with a bizarre obsession about how 800 fans of a small village in the north feels about things rather than looking for new, attractive markets to create growth and some value

 

Well done everyone, well done 

 

 

Utter rubbish 

[Gooleboy]

1 hour ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

The inevitable consequence of small-minded, pathetic leadership over 10+ years, with a bizarre obsession about how 800 fans of a small village in the north feels about things rather than looking for new, attractive markets to create growth and some value

 

Well done everyone, well done 

 

 

Which Village is that?

[nadera78]

9 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

The deal for Premiership Rugby, which has 13 teams but 12 in the division, gives CVC 'up to' 45% of revenue above a ratchet figure.  So the incentive is to increase revenues. 

As far as the investment money its been formally said that the money is not to go on wages, but on facilities and development and on the wider development of the game.  Now obviously you could argue that this is a lot of pokies, but debating on these future events is a pointless deliberation.

Our bottom line is that we need investment.  If it came from Elon Musk I'd settle for that.  But frankly I would look through the other end of the telescope - why would any investor want to offer anything to us if our game is determined to be moribund? 

The purpose of investment would be to revitalise our game.  Revitalise.  That means change.  Doing nothing is not an option.  Unless we embrace change... the change in the structure of the game (not just worrying about 6-again and 2 points for drop goals etc), then we will continue to be repeat the same mistakes all over and over again.

You're only telling part of the story here.

The RU Premiership has just sold it's broadcast rights for £110m over 3 years, with CVC taking a guaranteed 27% of that - i.e. £30m. You forgot to mention this part. It means, rather obviously, that the clubs will receive less money than they have in previous years. The 45% you've mentioned was what CVC could have received for any increase over a set amount, but that didn't come to pass so they'll have to settle for a measly £10m a year (oh, and 27% of other income too, like sponsorship).

The majority of the clubs, meanwhile, in addition to having to live with less broadcast income in future years, have used the up front payment received from CVC to pay off some of their debts to their owners. That is not an investment, it's dead money, taken from future income. They've already lopped £2m off their salary cap and they'll probably have to cut it again at some point.

It's obvious you're very keen on PE buying into SL, but I can't for the life of me work out why. Half the SL clubs would be dead in the water if you reduced their income by £500,000 per annum.

[The Rocket]

13 hours ago, Scotchy1 said:

I think the current situation will call for something of a rationalisation within the lower league (and its shocking how many are ready to just say goodbye to L1)

If I were the expansion clubs in L1 I would be knocking on the door on the SL big boys and just asking what can we do for you. You want feeder clubs? We can do that. Give us your 19/20/21 year olds and a few old stagers and a bit of money, we need players you need somewhere for them to play. 

You want expanded academies? Brilliant we can do that, give us some help with  coaching and scouting etc and we can basically run a second academy for you. 

You want an incubator for expansion sides? Wonderful let us call ourselves super league 2, give us a few preseason games against you and we would love to do that.

You want our TV rights as filler? Fine, sounds good. No-ones buying them anyway. It would be good for us to have them for our fans. Give each of us an on the road game every year, split the profits and they're yours.

L1 clubs aren't competing with SL, they should be working together and sharing resources finding efficiencies and building 

I can`t believe that doesn`t happen already, all our NRL teams have feeder relationships with either NSW or Queensland Cup teams. Where presently do Super League teams play their players that aren`t in the first grade squad ?

[Oxford]

11 hours ago, Damien said:

1. Send off two players from each team preferably those two tall ones that just jump.

2. Penalise anyone that attempts to form a ruck or contests the ball from the tackled player.

3. Due to those tall ones that just jump being sent off just have a scrum instead of those stupid lineout things.

The point to putting this on here Damien was that  the Sky thread become so inundated with references to yawn that League Freak talking kick & clap should be included.

 

12 hours ago, Oxford said:

http://www.leaguefreak.com/nigel-owens-reveals-three-ways-for-referees-to-make-rugby-more-exciting-48119/

The only reference to other sports getting better contracts should be where they got them and why aren't we in negotiations with the same people. We should be there with the viewing figures as the primary evidence and whilst that's going on we should be going door to door with anyone else with the right kind of monies and media output.

And we never seem to talk about what Sky get for less. It's not a pizza deal it's the life blood.

[Damien]

2 hours ago, nadera78 said:

You're only telling part of the story here.

The RU Premiership has just sold it's broadcast rights for £110m over 3 years, with CVC taking a guaranteed 27% of that - i.e. £30m. You forgot to mention this part. It means, rather obviously, that the clubs will receive less money than they have in previous years. The 45% you've mentioned was what CVC could have received for any increase over a set amount, but that didn't come to pass so they'll have to settle for a measly £10m a year (oh, and 27% of other income too, like sponsorship).

The majority of the clubs, meanwhile, in addition to having to live with less broadcast income in future years, have used the up front payment received from CVC to pay off some of their debts to their owners. That is not an investment, it's dead money, taken from future income. They've already lopped £2m off their salary cap and they'll probably have to cut it again at some point.

It's obvious you're very keen on PE buying into SL, but I can't for the life of me work out why. Half the SL clubs would be dead in the water if you reduced their income by £500,000 per annum.

Indeed and this has been pointed out time and again but he always seems to ignore it and as you say he seems to constantly push for PE without seemingly understanding or caring about the consequences.

To give up 50% of the games revenue for £50 million, as is the figure quoted for RL, doesn't even make up for the proposed 50% reduction in the TV deal over the course of the next TV deal. It also hamstrings clubs every year going forward.  The games future should not be jeopardised by a panic decision due to a poor TV deal. It would be suicidal and stupidity beyond belief.