Dunbar Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 3 minutes ago, GeordieSaint said: Dunbar - Davo5, I was thinking those who hadn’t broken through properly yet, which arguably all those players have. Harvard is definitely one to push through if fit. A strong season for Wardle/Newman to put pressure on Percival and Gildart would be a fantastic conundrum for Wane to be in. Smithies, whilst being a good prospect, we’ll need to improve rapidly IMO to be competitive for the squad. Same with Ashton. Bentley is pencilled for Ireland; and I think needs to develop a stronger running game to push for international honours. It’ll be interesting to see Farnworth’s development this year. How many in the final squad - 24? I can see Sam Walters and Tom Holroyd at Leeds developing into top quality players but probably too soon for them. Same with Harry Smith at Wigan. They will be in the next generation of England players. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usain bolt Posted December 24, 2020 Author Share Posted December 24, 2020 17 hours ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: I think in Mcgilvary, Hall, Watkins, Roby, Graham and Burgess we either had players who were the best in their position or up there with the best in the World in their positions. Those players have either retired or through age/various injuries no longer at their best. But surely there's a new batch coming through on their own merits. You list 5 or 6 world class in their positions. Surely out of a 34 man ish squad there's still 5 or 6 world class to choose from. If not then there's a problem somewhere along the line that there's none being produced. Replacing your Sam Burgess's is always a problem, unique individuals that come along few and far between, but hopefully the next world class players aren't too far away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 32 minutes ago, usain bolt said: But surely there's a new batch coming through on their own merits. You list 5 or 6 world class in their positions. Surely out of a 34 man ish squad there's still 5 or 6 world class to choose from. If not then there's a problem somewhere along the line that there's none being produced. Replacing your Sam Burgess's is always a problem, unique individuals that come along few and far between, but hopefully the next world class players aren't too far away. I agree. Mcgilvary & Hall have been good for England but if Makinson and Johnstone are fit by year end I really don't see us being weaker on the wings. We also have other contenders. Watkins could easily be in the mix next year as well but we didn't have young athletes like Farnworth and Newman coming through 4 years ago and these types of players are ideally suited to international rugby for me... tall, rangy and strong. Our front row will not have Graham but it will have the likes of T. Burgess, Walmsley, Thompson, Sutton and more. Plus some young guns like Havard and Oledzki who could force their way in. Roby may not be as good as 2017 (although I am not convinced the evidence is there to support that statement) but with Clark, Hodgson and McShane available we will not be poor at the 9 position. Then add the likes of George Williams who is an order of magnitude better than Kevin Brown and the likes of Sam Tomkins playing very effectively at full back and I am pretty happy that we can be very competitive next year. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Kevin Sinfield Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 36 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I agree. Mcgilvary & Hall have been good for England but if Makinson and Johnstone are fit by year end I really don't see us being weaker on the wings. We also have other contenders. Watkins could easily be in the mix next year as well but we didn't have young athletes like Farnworth and Newman coming through 4 years ago and these types of players are ideally suited to international rugby for me... tall, rangy and strong. Our front row will not have Graham but it will have the likes of T. Burgess, Walmsley, Thompson, Sutton and more. Plus some young guns like Havard and Oledzki who could force their way in. Roby may not be as good as 2017 (although I am not convinced the evidence is there to support that statement) but with Clark, Hodgson and McShane available we will not be poor at the 9 position. Then add the likes of George Williams who is an order of magnitude better than Kevin Brown and the likes of Sam Tomkins playing very effectively at full back and I am pretty happy that we can be very competitive next year. We had T + G Burgess and Walmsley in the front row at the last World Cup too. We are much weaker this time round without Graham and S Burgess. James Roby will be 36 come the World Cup Final, he’s still a great player but age is catching up with him. I’m sure we will be competitive, but I can’t see us getting past Tonga in the knockout stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: We had T + G Burgess and Walmsley in the front row at the last World Cup too. We are much weaker this time round without Graham and S Burgess. Players are allowed to improve (or regress) over a period of time. But agree that we are weaker in the front row. Losing S Burgess in particular is a massive loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AB90 Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 We will be competitive and a think it will be a good achievement if we make the final. Realistically this squad isn't going to strike fear into anyone. Samoa and Tonga are going to be coming into their games against us whereby anything other than a victory will be deemed a complete failure for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 1 minute ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: We had T + G Burgess and Walmsley in the front row at the last World Cup too. We are much weaker this time round without Graham and S Burgess. I have already agreed on this thread that losing Sam Burgess is a big blow as the 2021 comp could have been the highlight of his career (as the next England captain no doubt) if he had not succumbed to injury. Not sure why you need me to say that again. But we didn't have Luke Thompson in 2017 did we. By 2017 James Graham had pretty much stopped being the ball playing prop that made him one of the best in the world and was a straight up and down work rate prop... there is no reason why Luke Thompson couldn't be just as good in 2021 as Graham was in 2017. And I notice that you are focusing on what we have lost and not what we have gained. Do you really think that Kevin Brown who played in the final in 2017 is a better player than George Williams is now? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMEGA Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 Changes to OP in bold Fullbacks: Sam Tomkins, Stefan Ratchford, Max Jowitt (Once settled as the first choice FB for Trinity I think he’ll press a strong claim). No Jake Connor for me, his form is too erratic as is his temperament Wingers: Tommy Makinson, Matty Ashton, Dom Manfredi, Tom Johnstone Centres: Mark Percival, Jake Wardle, Kallum Watkins, Oliver Gildart, Harry Newman Halves: Jonny Lomax, George Williams, Harry Smith, Jake Trueman Props: Alex Walmsley, Tom Burgess, Luke Thompson, Liam Watts, Ethan Harvard, Mikalaj Oledski, Ryan Sutton Hooker: Daryl Clark, James Roby, Paul McShane Back row: John Bateman, Elliot Whitehead, Morgan Knowles, Ben Currie, Liam Farrell, Josh Jones Starting Team: Form and Fitness permitting Tomkins Makinson Watkins Percival Johnstone Williams Smith Walmsley Clarke Thompson Whitehead Bateman Knowles Bench: Lomax, Currie, Burgess, Watts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotchy1 Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 I don't think we look stronger or as strong as previous years. I think we are hoping for a few youngsters to step up and hoping a few old stagers don't get injured. It seems a very transitional period for us and really isn't helped by the fact we don't play any internationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMEGA Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 31 minutes ago, Sir Kevin Sinfield said: We had T + G Burgess and Walmsley in the front row at the last World Cup too. We are much weaker this time round without Graham and S Burgess. We had too many massive players on the field at the same time, you simply can’t have T, G & S Burgess all defending the middle channel at the same time as the fleeter footed players will and did target them and bust us through the middle. This is exactly what NZ did to us, they weathered a battering for almost 20 minutes then when we rotated the front rower and had too many big big men in the middle they changed tactics and cut us up with footwork. Of course we’ll be weaker without 2 World Class players in Graham and Sam Burgess but to mitigate that the games getting faster and has less interchanges so having smaller and younger players might be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieSaint Posted December 24, 2020 Share Posted December 24, 2020 The big losses are Sam Burgess and Sean O’Loughlin. I think the likes of Luke Thompson covers for the loss of players like Graham and Hill, especially if the leadership of Tomkins and Roby are still on the park. You need the likes of Walmsley and Bateman to now step up to replace Burgess/O’Loughlin. If they can, we are stronger than 2017 IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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