Dave T Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 12 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Nobody has ever asked me about Exeter RU, that’s true (although I bet they get crowds as good as most RL teams) But I can’t remember the amount of times people have said to me ‘did you see the rugby?’ When referring to the 6 nations or something. Likewise the number of pubs bedecked in RU promotional stuff urging people to ‘come and watch the rugby’. And I mean in Bradford and Leeds, not Esher. The best I can remember for RL is a few (a few.!) pubs with a banner outside saying they show SL rugby. 8 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Nope. Mass awareness would be people knowing of the players without knowing much about them. How many people who know who Jonny Wilkinson is, are even aware what a fly half is? They don’t need to though, they just know he’s a rugby player. These people couldn’t name a RL player if you held a gun to their head. That’s the difference between having a worthy competition that RL fans might enjoy and Joe Bloggs in the street knowing it even exists. But we are not talking the club game here. You won't get me disagreeing with the benefits of nailing the international game, but nobody knew Wilkinson because of his club efforts. And tbh, the vast majority of the country couldn't name and England RU test player now. I know I'd struggle. I'd probably be able to recall some with prompting. As I've said, the best way to grow RL in the UK is through internationals, but keeping it on the club game, mainstream awareness is extremely difficult, if not impossible to achieve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: But we are not talking the club game here. You won't get me disagreeing with the benefits of nailing the international game, but nobody knew Wilkinson because of his club efforts. And tbh, the vast majority of the country couldn't name and England RU test player now. I know I'd struggle. I'd probably be able to recall some with prompting. As I've said, the best way to grow RL in the UK is through internationals, but keeping it on the club game, mainstream awareness is extremely difficult, if not impossible to achieve. Completely agree , wether it's Leigh , London , Toronto or Barcelona in SL , until we get regular competitive Internationals being played in this country we will never raise the profile of the sport beyond where it is now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Johnoco said: And we won’t grow international RL because club priorities come first and probably always will. I'm looking forward to what should be the biggest World Cup ever next year, depending on what happens with covid! It may be frustratingly slow progress, but we are seeing progress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Agreed but...... It’s the 125th Anniversary of RL this year. This is not fantastic progress whichever way you look at it. Time is the thing that RL doesn’t have on its side and in reality has probably missed the expansion boat. Soccer exploded as a spectator sport in the uk in 20 years or so. 20 years ago was the year 2000. Has RL made any progress since then? Actual real progress? Not a good final between already established clubs? I say it hasn’t really It depends what you want mate. Some people just see it as a sport and enjoy it. We enjoy debating the business side of it round here, my perception is that we are in the minority in wanting aggressive expansion. Maybe those just cracking on and enjoying it are having a better time than many of us. And the game isn't dying before anybody goes down that route. It hasn't each time somebody has read its last rites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 41 minutes ago, Dave T said: Neither do we. We have an international game which is our pinnacle. We just haven't nailed delivery of it. The point is that 'mainstream' awareness is not an effective measure for club sport. Only football has that, and only then at the top end I would say. RU has bigger average crowds, more money, bigger sponsors, plus decent clubs in Scotland and Wales and Ireland, yet in general their club comps aren't mainstream events. Far from it. Which is my point, we could grow SL hugely, but it still won't have mass awareness. Its a poor measure. Is it our pinnacle? We hardly ever seem to play, at all nevermind at home, and our biggest RL playing nation doesn't seem to care that much about playing full stop because their pinnacle is an interstate series. RU does have mainstream awareness, evidenced by how they totally own the IP for the word rugby in the general consciousness except for a handful of towns alongside the M62. Equally, in Wales they do receive mainstream awareness how football does. Personally I think the best comparison we could have or at least aim for is Scottish football, Welsh RU or GAA. As a regional sport we cannot aspire to any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: Is it our pinnacle? We hardly ever seem to play, at all nevermind at home, and our biggest RL playing nation doesn't seem to care that much about playing full stop because their pinnacle is an interstate series. RU does have mainstream awareness, evidenced by how they totally own the IP for the word rugby in the general consciousness except for a handful of towns alongside the M62. Equally, in Wales they do receive mainstream awareness how football does. Personally I think the best comparison we could have or at least aim for is Scottish football, Welsh RU or GAA. As a regional sport we cannot aspire to any more. We are discussing SL awareness levels being comparable to RU club comps. RU's awareness absolutely comes from their international setup, not the club game. The awareness of club RU is pretty poor considering how big the international game is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: We are discussing SL awareness levels being comparable to RU club comps. RU's awareness absolutely comes from their international setup, not the club game. The awareness of club RU is pretty poor considering how big the international game is. If there was any real awareness of club RU in this country then the iconography of the current Premiership champions would be a topic of mainstream debate. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 52 minutes ago, Johnoco said: And we won’t grow international RL because club priorities come first and probably always will. In what way does club priorities stop International growth ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: In what way does club priorities stop International growth ? I don't know if the club priorities stop international growth but Rugby League is certainly a club centric sport when it comes to decision making. If you look at the likes of Union (Autumn internationals/Six Nations) and cricket (Test Series, ODI etc) there are major international fixtures that play out during the club season that take the elite players away from their clubs/counties for a significant amount of the season. Can we imagine the reaction if the RFL or ARL said it wanted to tour the other nation for six weeks with a 3 match Ashes series during the season. It would be a total non-starter Because of this, the window for internationals to be played is relatively small and does have an effect on its value and impact. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 41 minutes ago, Dave T said: We are discussing SL awareness levels being comparable to RU club comps. RU's awareness absolutely comes from their international setup, not the club game. The awareness of club RU is pretty poor considering how big the international game is. It's not that bad considering it basically started as a competitive entity 25 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: I don't know if the club priorities stop international growth but Rugby League is certainly a club centric sport when it comes to decision making. If you look at the likes of Union (Autumn internationals/Six Nations) and cricket (Test Series, ODI etc) there are major international fixtures that play out during the club season that take the elite players away from their clubs/counties for a significant amount of the season. Can we imagine the reaction if the RFL or ARL said it wanted to tour the other nation for six weeks with a 3 match Ashes series during the season. It would be a total non-starter Because of this, the window for internationals to be played is relatively small and does have an effect on its value and impact. That is a result of us not having enough competitive opponents to start with , so the pro club game in both hemispheres took the TV pound/dollar , not a criticism of them , they had no choice If we'd had 5/6 competitive nations to put together a 6 week tournament that would have made tens of millions , then things would have been different , we were getting somewhere 15 years ago with the 3/4 nation's , then that ended , who decided that ? In Australia they don't see the need as they've built up their interstate comp to be the pinnacle , in some way you can't blame them when we ( as in England/GB ) haven't truly challenged them for decades , so does that make it our fault ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Tommygilf said: It's not that bad considering it basically started as a competitive entity 25 years ago Mmmmmm , but yes it is , their club game is poor , in truth I believe it will always be poor , the International aspect will always dominate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, Johnoco said: Come on mate, get real. We know it does. How ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 Just now, Johnoco said: Exactly. We used to deride the club RU game as '2 men and a dog'. But let's compare attendances now. Its obvious which league has been on the upward trajectory for the past 5/10 years and certainly the who could claim to be the national sport behind football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommygilf Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 minute ago, GUBRATS said: Mmmmmm , but yes it is , their club game is poor , in truth I believe it will always be poor , the International aspect will always dominate it And yet their poor club game is bigger than ours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 9 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: That is a result of us not having enough competitive opponents to start with , so the pro club game in both hemispheres took the TV pound/dollar , not a criticism of them , they had no choice If we'd had 5/6 competitive nations to put together a 6 week tournament that would have made tens of millions , then things would have been different , we were getting somewhere 15 years ago with the 3/4 nation's , then that ended , who decided that ? In Australia they don't see the need as they've built up their interstate comp to be the pinnacle , in some way you can't blame them when we ( as in England/GB ) haven't truly challenged them for decades , so does that make it our fault ? If, as a sport, we had focussed on the international game 30 or 40 or 50 years ago both the international game and the club game would have massively benefited by now. Successful businesses and individuals don't make excuses, they change for the better. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 minute ago, Tommygilf said: And yet their poor club game is bigger than ours Yes We can compare ourselves to anybody and everybody , it's a daily occurrence on here , what do we learn from all these comparisons ? , Basically we're too old a sport to set up from scratch again , and unfortunately we didn't do lots of the things other sports did a hundred years ago , but I don't see how anybody can blame those in charge now , for what did or didn't happen then , it's like somebody trying to make me feel guilty for slavery , or a German now for Hitler Bottom line is we need to find our own way upwards , just constantly comparing us to all and sundry is pointless , wasteful and indeed damaging , all IMO of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: If, as a sport, we had focussed on the international game 30 or 40 or 50 years ago both the international game and the club game would have massively benefited by now. Successful businesses and individuals don't make excuses, they change for the better. See my post above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, Johnoco said: You say it's poor yet they have bigger attendances than RL. So what does that make RL? Not as big a sport as RU , so what ? What do you suggest ? , Oh I forgot , you don't offer answers or suggestions or opinions I know , let's all throw ourselves off the roof of the South stand a Headingley , that'll make the news Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 2 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: See my post above International fixtures and tournaments is far and away the best way for a sport to raise its profile, reach new audiences and generate income. The profile and audiences also has a beneficial effect on the domestic game. I don't want anyone to feel guilty that are priorities are wrong and we have missed opportunities for decade after decade. But I would prefer us to actually not be in exactly the same position we are in now in 30 or 40 years. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 11 hours ago, Dave T said: To turn this on its head, what is the NRL selling itself on? What new teams do they need to sell their product? What superstars joining the comp do they need to push? In reality we have the same things to offer the UK sporting market relative to the NRL and the Aussie market. We have genuine World class athletes on show every week, we have top class entertainment, we have some of the players already mentioned, we have historic teams battling for historic tournaments, we have a battle for SL - can Toulouse earn a spot on the field? We have exactly what everyone else has. We just need to keep finding the angles, selling the stories, putting on a great show, working hard. And we finish the year with the cherry on top, the biggest World Cup ever. Hear hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 5 minutes ago, Dunbar said: International fixtures and tournaments is far and away the best way for a sport to raise its profile, reach new audiences and generate income. The profile and audiences also has a beneficial effect on the domestic game. I don't want anyone to feel guilty that are priorities are wrong and we have missed opportunities for decade after decade. But I would prefer us to actually not be in exactly the same position we are in now in 30 or 40 years. That would require us to find 3/4/5 more competitive international teams ( real ones , not just Sydney immigrant social club teams ) from somewhere , preferably countries that actually have a stadium where they can play a game rather than just a beach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, GUBRATS said: That would require us to find 3/4/5 more competitive international teams ( real ones , not just Sydney immigrant social club teams ) from somewhere , preferably countries that actually have a stadium where they can play a game rather than just a beach I agree, that would be great. Pity we didn't build towards this in the past but at least we can get started now. Having said that, we have plenty of teams coming here at the end of next year for the World Cup and nobody I speak to about international rugby outside of these boards gives a stuff where the players ply their club trade. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, Dunbar said: If, as a sport, we had focussed on the international game 30 or 40 or 50 years ago both the international game and the club game would have massively benefited by now. Successful businesses and individuals don't make excuses, they change for the better. If , if doesn't solve your issues now , ' if ' has gone , it's in the past , reminds me of that crazy babboon out of Lion King , you can't live in the past , but you can learn from it , so what do we learn ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUBRATS Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 6 minutes ago, Dunbar said: I agree, that would be great. Pity we didn't build towards this in the past but at least we can get started now. Having said that, we have plenty of teams coming here at the end of next year for the World Cup and nobody I speak to about international rugby outside of these boards gives a stuff where the players ply their club trade. Brilliant ,I look forward to us touring Lebanon,Fiji and the Cook Islands And you might be right , but I have a funny feeling we won't be seeing any International RL teams in this country till 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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