Rugby league players don’t receive knighthoods - do we care?

[Tommygilf]

I think the Knighthood stuff is symbolic of how we as a game and the places it it prominent struggle with our place in society. To some extent, knighthoods would add some sense of validation or at least presence in the national conscience.

[Pie tries]

Yes, it bothers me too.

'Sir' Ellery should have been knighted - his story is fabulous and RL in general deserves the recongintion for being light years ahead of all other sports in having a black captain (Sir Clive Sullivan) and then first blakc coach.

However, we as a sport have - in part- only ourselves to blame. How many of us have wrtitten / complained to ou MP, MOS, or even the PM....?

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

28 minutes ago, Pie tries said:

Yes, it bothers me too.

'Sir' Ellery should have been knighted - his story is fabulous and RL in general deserves the recongintion for being light years ahead of all other sports in having a black captain (Sir Clive Sullivan) and then first blakc coach.

However, we as a sport have - in part- only ourselves to blame. How many of us have wrtitten / complained to ou MP, MOS, or even the PM....?

This is a good post, PT.

There are a two or three points which I haven't spotted on skim-reading this thread (but, as ever, apologies if they have been made) 

First, you cannot nominate somebody for a knighthood.  You propose them for an honour, and then the type of honour is proposed or determined (not sure, technically, which) by those who scrutinize the cases for the names put forward, or so I understand it to be.

Second, I think that, over the years, the ease with which honours are given to sportsmen, and the class of honour, have changed.  No doubt, old fogeys like me would say that too much is given too soon nowadays, but that's another discussion for another thread on another day.  However, this might go part of the way, at least, to explain the lack of honours for some of the pioneers, such as Clive Sullivan.

Third, rather than complaining along the lines you suggest, we need first to actually make nominations.  For sure, if those are not accepted, we may have grounds for complaints as you suggest, but were I to complain, for example, to my MP about the lack of a knighthood for Kevin Sinfield, I am sure the first thing he would say is, "Give me details of the case you made when nominating him for an honour."  Er, fair enough, I didn't...!

[DC77]

9 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Sir Ellery Hanley would be my choice.

As well as being arguably the best British player in living memory and a winner of numerous individual awards (3 * Man of Steel, Golden Boot at the best player in the world) he was also the first black coach of a major national side in the UK, an achievement that transcends the individual sport.

If we see these awards as representing great individual achievement and breaking cultural barriers then he is the clear and obvious choice.

Good shout that.

Regarding knighthoods, there’s loads in sailing and horse racing, so it is weighted towards the establishment (middle class pursuits). This also applies in football, as Man Utd are the establishment club (minutes after winning the Champions League it was leaked Fergie would be knighted, they couldn’t have given it to him quicker if they tried). Sir Matt Busby...only won one European Cup, yet Bob Paisley with three, never knighted. 

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

This is a good post, PT.

There are a two or three points which I haven't spotted on skim-reading this thread (but, as ever, apologies if they have been made) 

First, you cannot nominate somebody for a knighthood.  You propose them for an honour, and then the type of honour is proposed or determined (not sure, technically, which) by those who scrutinize the cases for the names put forward, or so I understand it to be.

Second, I think that, over the years, the ease with which honours are given to sportsmen, and the class of honour, have changed.  No doubt, old fogeys like me would say that too much is given too soon nowadays, but that's another discussion for another thread on another day.  However, this might go part of the way, at least, to explain the lack of honours for some of the pioneers, such as Clive Sullivan.

Third, rather than complaining along the lines you suggest, we need first to actually make nominations.  For sure, if those are not accepted, we may have grounds for complaints as you suggest, but were I to complain, for example, to my MP about the lack of a knighthood for Kevin Sinfield, I am sure the first thing he would say is, "Give me details of the case you made when nominating him for an honour."  Er, fair enough, I didn't...!

With people like Clive Sullivan, there should be a posthumous "we are incredibly sorry we did not award this in time" Knighthood

[HarrogateKnights]

With the above has anyone ever nominated someone for an award? I am sure there are plenty of coaches that have been volunteering tirelessly for years that create positive impacts at community levels that if nominated by individuals they would receive BEM or possibly even a MBE if you think of some of the big amateur clubs without like Stanningley or Siddal to name 2 without the volunteers the gap left in society where 150+ kids wouldn't have a sports team. It wouldn't be surprising if the RFU don't have a committee just filling out forms for honours. If you looked in the honours list this year Exeter head Coach Rob Baxter awarded with OBE for winning the league and European Cup. Their captain Joe Simmonds awarded an MBE too. Their chairman awarded OBE in 2012 for services to sport for basically running Exeter Chiefs as a business.... 

[Jean de Bordeaux]

I thought sincerely Kevin Sinfield would be awarded a knighthood after his 7 marathons / 7 days achievement .

There is really a discrimination problem in this case 

[Jean de Bordeaux]

2 minutes ago, Jean de Bordeaux said:

I thought sincerely Kevin Sinfield would be awarded a knighthood after his 7 marathons / 7 days achievement .

There is really a discrimination problem in this case 

At least an OBE !

[Wiltshire Warrior Dragon]

45 minutes ago, Jean de Bordeaux said:

I thought sincerely Kevin Sinfield would be awarded a knighthood after his 7 marathons / 7 days achievement .

There is really a discrimination problem in this case 

At a practical level, Jean, that magnificent achievement by Sinfield came too late to lead to a knighthood for him in the New Year's Honours list.  The vetting process of nominees, with a handful of unusually high profile exceptions (eg Lewis Hamilton), will take some time to undertake.  Even in Hamilton's case, I wouldn't be surprised if some early vetting had been done in anticipation of his sporting achievement, which itself was, I believe, about two months ago.

[Robin Evans]

Yup.... hoof this thread into the politics forum.....

I don't see how you can separate the lack of recognition for RL, perceived or otherwise, can be wholly separate from the politics of the honours system.... 

 

[Oxford]

28 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Yup.... hoof this thread into the politics forum.....

I don't see how you can separate the lack of recognition for RL, perceived or otherwise, can be wholly separate from the politics of the honours system.... 

 

Well that's fine Robin except for those of us banned from the political forum.

This is a substantive RL concern and many of those disappear for various reasons not all of them that good. Removing this would serve no purpose other than it'll be a bit quieter.

The question is do our sportsmen deserve less recognition than athletes in other sports?

It is also legitimate to ask why even though we all know the answer.

[Rupert Prince]

In theory ... theory ... people should not receive an award, or honour, or recognition, just because someone is talented.  If we look at say Sir Isaac Newton, he did not get an award for working out the dynamics of gravity (he did not 'invent' it),  ie his natural ability.  He was given a knighthood by a grateful nation (the government) for recoining a debased currency. This was many years later.  Likewise Wren was given a knighthood when quite old. There is a long tradition of "political" honours.

Of course today luvvies get awards really for being famous.  This is wrong.  But if a RL player works broadly selflessly for a cause then he should receive an appropriate recognition.

I think we are looking though the wrong end of the telescope, we need fewer honours, not more.

[Robin Evans]

10 minutes ago, Oxford said:

Well that's fine Robin except for those of us banned from the political forum.

This is a substantive RL concern and many of those disappear for various reasons not all of them that good. Removing this would serve no purpose other than it'll be a bit quieter.

The question is do our sportsmen deserve less recognition than athletes in other sports?

It is also legitimate to ask why even though we all know the answer.

Fair answer.

I just struggle with the whole concept of the uk honours system.... that the politics i can't separate from the question.

I kind of agree with your view

[Oxford]

2 minutes ago, Robin Evans said:

Fair answer.

I just struggle with the whole concept of the uk honours system.... that the politics i can't separate from the question.

I kind of agree with your view

Morning Robin by the way.

There is no way to extract the politics completely and it is a questionable system to say the least.

But League being undevalued is an issue that should have all of us unhappy.

[Robin Evans]

2 hours ago, Oxford said:

Morning Robin by the way.

There is no way to extract the politics completely and it is a questionable system to say the least.

But League being undevalued is an issue that should have all of us unhappy.

Afternoon owd lad.

Not that you can contribute,  but I've opened a thread up on AOB.... saves me whinging about it on here and John or CKN halting proceedings....

[Tommygilf]

Kev is already a Sir, by popular acclamation rather than establishment recognition, which is arguably far more valid.

[Robin Evans]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Kev is already a Sir, by popular acclamation rather than establishment recognition, which is arguably far more valid.

On that.... we have agreement. It holds way more value IMO

[Pie tries]

5 hours ago, Jean de Bordeaux said:

I thought sincerely Kevin Sinfield would be awarded a knighthood after his 7 marathons / 7 days achievement .

There is really a discrimination problem in this case 

Yes there is - and has been for the last 100 plus years. 
However we all have a responsibility to do something about it

[DC77]

24 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Kev is already a Sir, by popular acclamation rather than establishment recognition, which is arguably far more valid.

It’s quite cool that. Sir Les (Ferdinand) is another. Roger Hunt is also often referred to as Sir Roger.

Geldof (who, with his honorary knighthood, can’t be a Sir) is addressed as Sir Bob.

[moorside roughyed]

Me, personally I don't give two hoots about awards dished out by people who have no knowledge of our game. We know who the legends if the game are and they are recognised within the game. Also I'm sure we all have our favourites depending on the club you follow. My favourite players were Charlie Mcallister and Mal Graham of Oldham in the eighties. We also have the more well known ones who played for the bigger clubs. We know who the rugby league greats are and they don't need endorsing by anyone else other those in the game. 

[Oxford]

4 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

Afternoon owd lad.

Not that you can contribute,  but I've opened a thread up on AOB.... saves me whinging about it on here and John or CKN halting proceedings....

evening Robin

That's probably a good move to avoid locked and or moved for our own good of course!

Thing is it's an issue that, if you believe in the system, is a crucial to the sport for recognition that's long over due.

[Jean de Bordeaux]

9 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

At a practical level, Jean, that magnificent achievement by Sinfield came too late to lead to a knighthood for him in the New Year's Honours list.  The vetting process of nominees, with a handful of unusually high profile exceptions (eg Lewis Hamilton), will take some time to undertake.  Even in Hamilton's case, I wouldn't be surprised if some early vetting had been done in anticipation of his sporting achievement, which itself was, I believe, about two months ago.

Next year ... maybe ?

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, Robin Evans said:

On that.... we have agreement. It holds way more value IMO

It does, but would be nice to be official too

[Jean de Bordeaux]

9 hours ago, Wiltshire Warrior Dragon said:

At a practical level, Jean, that magnificent achievement by Sinfield came too late to lead to a knighthood for him in the New Year's Honours list.  The vetting process of nominees, with a handful of unusually high profile exceptions (eg Lewis Hamilton), will take some time to undertake.  Even in Hamilton's case, I wouldn't be surprised if some early vetting had been done in anticipation of his sporting achievement, which itself was, I believe, about two months ago.

Next year ... maybe ?

[Oxford]

8 hours ago, Rupert Prince said:

In theory ... theory ... people should not receive an award, or honour, or recognition, just because someone is talented.  If we look at say Sir Isaac Newton, he did not get an award for working out the dynamics of gravity (he did not 'invent' it),  ie his natural ability.  He was given a knighthood by a grateful nation (the government) for recoining a debased currency. This was many years later.  Likewise Wren was given a knighthood when quite old. There is a long tradition of "political" honours.

Of course today luvvies get awards really for being famous.  This is wrong.  But if a RL player works broadly selflessly for a cause then he should receive an appropriate recognition.

I think we are looking though the wrong end of the telescope, we need fewer honours, not more.

Rupert the award system which is essentailly favour and patronage from times past dressed up with tradition. It's all we have because people's awards carry little or no weight.

And if we looked for fewer awards we'd have none at all.