RLWC a different format?

[Hela Wigmen]

13 hours ago, Spidey said:

For a start, absolutely nobody wants it

Does anyone care that much? In Wales, I’d say no, not at all. In England, you’d get some moaning but it’s Rugby League, you’d get that if Cam Munster had English heritage and was picked. In fact, you’d get moaning from Rugby League fans that the wrong shade of white was used to paint the posts. 

[2blackrooks]

Leave well alone the current format is building nicely, 

We just need to build a decent international scene, teams playing 8-10 games per year so to begin to close the gap between the top sides and the rest. 

I'm all for the emerging nations tournament to continue, it's crucial for development, and push an U18 U 21 WC as well. 

We need to take the long view on this if progress is good then by 2037 WC we should be seeing more closer games.

What is important is that the tier 2 teams not be forgotten and nurtured into playing more tier 1 teams, unlike Union where tier 1 seems like a closed boys club and sod the rest ££££££££

[Dave T]

On 17/01/2021 at 06:08, 2blackrooks said:

Leave well alone the current format is building nicely, 

We just need to build a decent international scene, teams playing 8-10 games per year so to begin to close the gap between the top sides and the rest. 

I'm all for the emerging nations tournament to continue, it's crucial for development, and push an U18 U 21 WC as well. 

We need to take the long view on this if progress is good then by 2037 WC we should be seeing more closer games.

What is important is that the tier 2 teams not be forgotten and nurtured into playing more tier 1 teams, unlike Union where tier 1 seems like a closed boys club and sod the rest ££££££££

This is ultimately it, growth will happen by playing more games and staging them well in the right grounds, at the right times of the year etc. 

The World Cup is great, we don't need to stress too much about the format of it, it is growing quite nicely and the next one is looking pretty hot. This is a rare example of us sticking with something - after a disaster in 2000, we staged a relatively decent 2008 World Cup which did what it needed to in terms of a weird Super Group structure to force big games, but it wasn't really that palatable to do this for more than that one tournament. In 2013 we moved the dial towards a more standard structure and it worked. 2017 used a similar format, forcing England and Aus together. This time we have backed ourselves to use a standard format, and I think that is possible due to the growth of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, who have all had good results against the big 3, plus the likes of PNG have improved, and then the likes of Scotland have shown that if they pull the right team together they can do ok.

The only issue I have with the World Cup is not directly about the World Cup, it is the other three years around it. Ultimately the World Cup is built on foundations of sand, as long we only get some of the teams together in any meaningful fixtures every four years we are at risk of missing out on real growth. 

We should be delivering decent sized tournaments every year without fail, that help subsidise international tournaments and fixtures to allow nations to grow. We need to be able to focus on nations being stronger each time they play in a World Cup and particularly the likes of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, this isn't the case. It is all a bit random as to whether there are some heritage players available. I have no issues with heritage players, but they should be representing their nations outside of World Cup years too in meaningful tournaments.

[2blackrooks]

On 18/01/2021 at 10:47, Dave T said:

This is ultimately it, growth will happen by playing more games and staging them well in the right grounds, at the right times of the year etc. 

The World Cup is great, we don't need to stress too much about the format of it, it is growing quite nicely and the next one is looking pretty hot. This is a rare example of us sticking with something - after a disaster in 2000, we staged a relatively decent 2008 World Cup which did what it needed to in terms of a weird Super Group structure to force big games, but it wasn't really that palatable to do this for more than that one tournament. In 2013 we moved the dial towards a more standard structure and it worked. 2017 used a similar format, forcing England and Aus together. This time we have backed ourselves to use a standard format, and I think that is possible due to the growth of Tonga, Samoa and Fiji, who have all had good results against the big 3, plus the likes of PNG have improved, and then the likes of Scotland have shown that if they pull the right team together they can do ok.

The only issue I have with the World Cup is not directly about the World Cup, it is the other three years around it. Ultimately the World Cup is built on foundations of sand, as long we only get some of the teams together in any meaningful fixtures every four years we are at risk of missing out on real growth. 

We should be delivering decent sized tournaments every year without fail, that help subsidise international tournaments and fixtures to allow nations to grow. We need to be able to focus on nations being stronger each time they play in a World Cup and particularly the likes of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, this isn't the case. It is all a bit random as to whether there are some heritage players available. I have no issues with heritage players, but they should be representing their nations outside of World Cup years too in meaningful tournaments.

Absolutely spot on, I've said time n time again we need a regular international scene, England last played in 2018, naturally Covid played it's part BUT England RU have managed to play without issue!

The only way Spain, Greece, Russia, Serbia, our own home nations etc are going to improve is to play regular high level games. Leading to more interesting/close games in the future

[RP London]

17 hours ago, 2blackrooks said:

Absolutely spot on, I've said time n time again we need a regular international scene, England last played in 2018, naturally Covid played it's part BUT England RU have managed to play without issue!

The only way Spain, Greece, Russia, Serbia, our own home nations etc are going to improve is to play regular high level games. Leading to more interesting/close games in the future

Anyone who knows me or has seen me on the forum for the last (nearly) 20 years will know that i am a massive advocate for the international game, i think we should be playing more and i think we should be playing france and wales (especially) more. I think we do ourselves a massive injustice by not having a better international presence and a lot could be achieved by it etc etc. 

However, I have to take issue with the fact you have said "England RU have managed to play without issue". We can have a go at our game on many levels but we also need to be a little realistic about what we are aiming at and how we compare. 

England RU have had massive issues in 2020 and into this year with the international game. The Six Nations was postponed. Summer internationals cancelled, autumn international cancelled to be replaced by a new tournament that was based around home nations plus Georgia (for whom a lot of their players are based in France and the UK) and Fiji who had their first 3 matches of the tournament cancelled due to Covid in the camp. This next Six Nations will go ahead behind closed doors (most likely) with players having to bubble for 8 weeks. 

The only reason Six Nations matches are going ahead is because of the money in the game and what may have had to be paid back. 

We had to delay the season so had no time at the end to play anyone, even if we had you are looking at France or Wales, France were probably the only possible as the Welsh team relies more heavily on championship players who had not played all year. If we had a settled tournament or set of games vs france within the season i would expect that would happen this year but we dont and that is a problem.. but to say England RU played so we should i believe is a massive misunderstanding of the situation both facing RL but also what England RU (and northern hemisphere RU as a whole) are having to do (to avoid financial ruin on paying money back) and have had to go through to get these tournaments/games up and running.

[Tommygilf]

On 18/01/2021 at 10:47, Dave T said:

We should be delivering decent sized tournaments every year without fail, that help subsidise international tournaments and fixtures to allow nations to grow. We need to be able to focus on nations being stronger each time they play in a World Cup and particularly the likes of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, this isn't the case. It is all a bit random as to whether there are some heritage players available. I have no issues with heritage players, but they should be representing their nations outside of World Cup years too in meaningful tournaments.

Regional comps in the years before and after world cups (in nations league style formats if people like), with a major global international 4 nations style tournament in the year left open (perhaps whilst other nations play world cup qualifiers).

[Hela Wigmen]

The European Championship that was planned for 2020 seemed a good addition, with promotion and relegation to be played for. I think it was due to expand from six to eight with England not taking part in the 2020 addition, though I can’t remember for definite. Ideally, as well, I’d prefer everyone played each other in a proper home and away format with a final for the winner. It guarantees more games then and could, theoretically be played out over two years, allowing England to play in this and potentially playing a Southern Hemisphere nation, if possible. 

[The Rocket]

On 13/01/2021 at 23:12, HarrogateKnights said:

With the gap growing between the traditional nations and then the best of the rest. To give players a chance of international honours at a world cupcould we have more nations competing. In theory it might limit the likes of Scotland as someone as Scottish as Danny Brough maybe selected for England Knights but in turn that might convince them to be more creative in their plan. Just a thought . E.g.

England and England Knights 

Australia (Kangaroos) and Australia Aboriginal

New Zealand (Kiwis) and New Zealand Maori 

There maybe a crossover where you have a player of indigenous heritage that qualifies for the first team which you could have the player choosing who to play for. When you look at the current groups for 2021 World Cup you think England vs Samoa should be a comfortable win for England but if it was England Knights it could be an interesting story. 

Not sure if you are aware but the annual Women`s and Men`s All-Stars match is on at the end of the month.

After several permutations the NRL seems to have settled on a winning formula with an Aboriginal All-Stars versus Maori All- Stars, fingers crossed. 

Settling on these two teams I think has several advantages. Probably the main one is the opportunity for the players to represent their culture, probably what you were alluding to above. In fact the event has become a celebration of the involvement and importance of these players in our competition.

Another advantage has been the fact down here this is something neither of our rival codes could put on. Union because the ARU couldn`t field an Aboriginal side if they wanted to and the afl because it`s only played in Oz, no one to play against. This gives League `fresh air ` for this event and all the positive media attention associated with it.

The last thing is is that it is a genuine contest that players are lining up to be involved in.

I can see this becoming another annual event like the Tonga vs. Samoa match, so popular that it will be able to be taken anywhere, draw big crowds because of the quality of the offering and be a direct spotlight on the role of indigenous people in our shared sport and their culture.

 

[unapologetic pedant]

11 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Not sure if you are aware but the annual Women`s and Men`s All-Stars match is on at the end of the month.

After several permutations the NRL seems to have settled on a winning formula with an Aboriginal All-Stars versus Maori All- Stars, fingers crossed. 

Another advantage has been the fact down here this is something neither of our rival codes could put on. Union because the ARU couldn`t field an Aboriginal side if they wanted to and the afl because it`s only played in Oz, no one to play against. This gives League `fresh air ` for this event and all the positive media attention associated with it.

The last thing is is that it is a genuine contest that players are lining up to be involved in.

Both indigenous Australians and Maori are, and always have been, disproportionately involved in RL. So, as you say, this gives the fixtures cultural resonance, and ensures a genuine SOO type of contest. In my view the event is more important for the women since the blokes are all NRL stars who regularly play in high-profile games.

It`s a particular drawcard for the NZRL to use to help keep female players of Maori heritage in League. Unfortunately it was announced a couple of weeks ago that, because of the travel restrictions, the Maori women`s players and staff all have to be Australia-based. There`s a piece by John Devonshire on the NZ Maori RL site about this. He`s not happy.

[tms]

On 14/01/2021 at 03:30, unapologetic pedant said:

The first emerging nations WC ran alongside the centenary WC in 1995. Cook Islands beat Ireland in the final at Gigg Lane. There were over four thousand there in pouring rain. We were due a deluge, the tournaments that year had enjoyed unseasonably good weather.

The 2018 tournament was held in Western Sydney. The final, in which Malta beat Niue, was a pretty good game turning a wee bit feisty towards the end. The games were covered by Bar TV, but typically the NRL media and fans paid no attention to the whole tournament.

that's right  in that tournament cook islands beat  usa  64 =6 along side scotland beating russia  34=9 at FEV 16th OCT 95  happy days funny thing russia had a second rower who was really good and FEV were interested in signing him but while his team mates had after match meal and drinks in the clubhouse he was smuggled out of the ground never to be seen again

and in the 2018 tournament as well as malta winning the cup poland won the trophy and solomon islands the bowl 

but there was one played in england in 2000 and on 13th NOV BARLA who won the cup beat morocco 60 -2 at FEV