NRL “Expansion” delayed

[The Great Dane]

7 hours ago, Oldbear said:

What, worse than Wakey or Cas! And I thought teams playing out of s#it tips was a British problem, at least that’s what some will have you believe.

Wouldn't know as I've never been to Wakefield or Castleford.
However Brookvale and Leichhardt are seriously outdated relicts that should have been abandoned by the NRL years ago. Let's put it this way, if Australia ever has a serious stadium disaster then it's more likely than not that it will happen at one of those two.

[Sports Prophet]

The title of this topic should be changed to “NRL Shelves Expansion Plans”

[Eddie]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

Sure, but they also don't have any other major income streams, or the means to invest heavily into building new ones quickly, which makes them almost totally reliant on their football operations to turn a profit, and they simply aren't profitable enough to keep pace with the constantly increasing costs of running an NRL club.

In other words other clubs have lower attendance, but they aren't as reliant on their attendance to build a sustainable footy club as Manly is. With the exception of Cronulla, who are in a similar situation to Manly in this regard, all the other clubs have way more room to grow their fan bases locally as well.

But if they’re finishing mid table surely they do have enough money to run an NRL club, more so than say the Tigers and Bulldogs who consistently finish below them, they know how to use the money they have got effectively. 

[The Rocket]

5 hours ago, The Great Dane said:

In other words other clubs have lower attendance, but they aren't as reliant on their attendance to build a sustainable footy club as Manly is. With the exception of Cronulla, who are in a similar situation to Manly in this regard, all the other clubs have way more room to grow their fan bases locally as well.

Mate I don`t mind a lot of what you usually say but as Australians on this forum we have an obligation to try to be as accurate as we possibly can, otherwise how can we believe anything. These Poms rely on us to for accurate information.

Now to say that Manly ,as well as Cronulla, are the only clubs without any  the prospects of growing their local fanbase is so far of the mark as to be almost funny. Canterbury, Souths, Roosters are equally hemmed in on all sides. The first two worse. Parra are also border line with regards to Penrith.

And to say that Brookvale and Leichardt are stadium disasters waiting to happen, I`ve been to both plenty of times and I`m just not quite sure of what sort of disaster you`re expecting. Certainly not glamorous, far from ideal, yes, but not dangerous.

And as far as the Bears resisting any Manly intrusion, well I don`t know enough about that one, haven`t heard anything, but I don`t think it`s holding the game back, Norths` are a wealthy enough club for their level, and if a talented junior comes through their ranks or they develop a player through the NSW Cup they will get picked up by someone.

Of course in an ideal world the Bears would swallow their pride and merge with Manly.

[Davo5]

28 minutes ago, The Rocket said:

Mate I don`t mind a lot of what you usually say but as Australians on this forum we have an obligation to try to be as accurate as we possibly can, otherwise how can we believe anything. These Poms rely on us to for accurate information.

Now to say that Manly ,as well as Cronulla, are the only clubs without any  the prospects of growing their local fanbase is so far of the mark as to be almost funny. Canterbury, Souths, Roosters are equally hemmed in on all sides. The first two worse. Parra are also border line with regards to Penrith.

And to say that Brookvale and Leichardt are stadium disasters waiting to happen, I`ve been to both plenty of times and I`m just not quite sure of what sort of disaster you`re expecting. Certainly not glamorous, far from ideal, yes, but not dangerous.

And as far as the Bears resisting any Manly intrusion, well I don`t know enough about that one, haven`t heard anything, but I don`t think it`s holding the game back, Norths` are a wealthy enough club for their level, and if a talented junior comes through their ranks or they develop a player through the NSW Cup they will get picked up by someone.

Of course in an ideal world the Bears would swallow their pride and merge with Manly.

I can honestly say I’ve never relied on Great Dane’s rantings for accurate & factual information.

[The Great Dane]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

But if they’re finishing mid table surely they do have enough money to run an NRL club, more so than say the Tigers and Bulldogs who consistently finish below them, they know how to use the money they have got effectively. 

Don't confuse poor decision making in the football department, particularly poor cap management, for financial instability.

The reality is that Manly are totally reliant on their NRL grant and the Penn family for their existence, and Scott Penn wants out.

Meanwhile both Wests and Canterbury have successful well run leagues clubs, and have the resources to follow the more successful clubs lead by investing heavily in other revenue steams.

[The Great Dane]

2 hours ago, The Rocket said:

Mate I don`t mind a lot of what you usually say but as Australians on this forum we have an obligation to try to be as accurate as we possibly can, otherwise how can we believe anything. These Poms rely on us to for accurate information.

Now to say that Manly ,as well as Cronulla, are the only clubs without any  the prospects of growing their local fanbase is so far of the mark as to be almost funny. Canterbury, Souths, Roosters are equally hemmed in on all sides. The first two worse. Parra are also border line with regards to Penrith.

You're right about the Roosters, they slipped my mind. However the rest have transcended their suburban boarders to varying degrees and now have mass appeal across the city (and the eastern seaboard of the country) in a way Manly has simply failed to achieve.

It's a fact that there're significantly more Souths fans in Western Sydney than Eastern Sydney these days, and that's been the case for more than a decade now. You see a similar thing with the Dogs and Parra as well, just on a smaller scale.

It also doesn't matter because all those clubs (with the possible exception of Cronulla) are in a position where they are at least reasonably financially stable for the time being, and don't need a huge boost of support to boost their business.

2 hours ago, The Rocket said:

And to say that Brookvale and Leichardt are stadium disasters waiting to happen, I`ve been to both plenty of times and I`m just not quite sure of what sort of disaster you`re expecting. Certainly not glamorous, far from ideal, yes, but not dangerous.

Neither have enough amenities to support a crowd over 10k, and all it would take is a handful of bad luck or bad decisions on a day with a big crowd and things could go badly #### up.

For example the southern stands at Leichardt were infested with termites for years before they were forced to rip one of them down. Apparently, despite being the same wooden design and only being meters away the other one is just fine though...

2 hours ago, The Rocket said:

And as far as the Bears resisting any Manly intrusion, well I don`t know enough about that one, haven`t heard anything, but I don`t think it`s holding the game back, Norths` are a wealthy enough club for their level, and if a talented junior comes through their ranks or they develop a player through the NSW Cup they will get picked up by someone.

Of course in an ideal world the Bears would swallow their pride and merge with Manly.

Norths, with the help of the NSWRL, have blocked Manly's attempts to grow outside of the Northern Beaches by claiming "they're trying to steal our juniors" multiple times. Of course Manly had no interest in Norths juniors and were just doing basic marketing that all sports clubs do, and the NRL should have put Norths and NSWRL in it's place, but they didn't and it is what it is.

As to a merger, I don't see what the point would be at this point, especially after how things went last time.

[The Great Dane]

2 hours ago, Davo5 said:

I can honestly say I’ve never relied on Great Dane’s rantings for accurate & factual information.

The only reason you describe my posts as uniformed rants is because you don't like what you hear. 

Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, the fact that on 95% of what I talk about I'm in a way better position to have an understanding of what's actually happening than almost any of the people I'm discussing it with on this forum doesn't matter either, no matter how uncontroversial that opinion would be in Australia, if it doesn't conform to the majority's bias you aren't interested in even truly engaging with it.

It's a real problem on this forum as well, because it's lead to an almost total intolerance of any opinion that doesn't conform to that confirmation bias, and in my time here I've seen multiple people bullied off the platform simply for holding firm on an opinion that others didn't like.

[Davo5]

25 minutes ago, The Great Dane said:

The only reason you describe my posts as uniformed rants is because you don't like what you hear. 

Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, the fact that on 95% of what I talk about I'm in a way better position to have an understanding of what's actually happening than almost any of the people I'm discussing it with on this forum doesn't matter either, no matter how uncontroversial that opinion would be in Australia, if it doesn't conform to the majority's bias you aren't interested in even truly engaging with it.

It's a real problem on this forum as well, because it's lead to an almost total intolerance of any opinion that doesn't conform to that confirmation bias, and in my time here I've seen multiple people bullied off the platform simply for holding firm on an opinion that others didn't like.

I rest my case. 

[Davo5]

4 hours ago, Eddie said:

But if they’re finishing mid table surely they do have enough money to run an NRL club, more so than say the Tigers and Bulldogs who consistently finish below them, they know how to use the money they have got effectively. 

Manly are one of the most recognisable teams in the NRL and have a sustained history of success,the new $30 million upgrade of Brookvale will see better facilities and game day experience at the ground with further development planned for the long term.

Whilst showing their age I have enjoyed watching a game at both Brookvale & Leichard far more than the cavernous ANZ with 10,000 lost in the stands.

[unapologetic pedant]

1 hour ago, The Great Dane said:

Norths, with the help of the NSWRL, have blocked Manly's attempts to grow outside of the Northern Beaches by claiming "they're trying to steal our juniors" multiple times. Of course Manly had no interest in Norths juniors and were just doing basic marketing that all sports clubs do, and the NRL should have put Norths and NSWRL in it's place, but they didn't and it is what it is.

From what I can detect from afar, the big difference between Cronulla and Manly is in their respective junior leagues. I don`t know whether the Northern Beaches used to have much higher participation rates, but currently it looks pretty thin. Like any franchise struggling with their local Tackle numbers, Manly need to emulate the success of League Tag in the Shire. Not as a means of nurturing future players but nurturing future fans.

The NSWRL are this year renewing their League Tag efforts in the Manly junior league, and V`landys is stressing participation including Touch and Tag as vital.

[BrisbaneRhino]

In an ideal world we'd get rid of the tiny grounds, but also stop using the huge stadia for club games attracting barely 10k. The new stadium in west Sydney looks great on TV and has an atmosphere with reasonable sized NRL crowds. I personally hate watching games at ANZ or other stadia where there are a few k spectators crammed into small sections of the ground.  Horrible look.

I do wonder where an extra teams worth of players would come from. The gap between top and bottom is pretty big and whilst a new team would sign a couple of big names, I'm not sure where they'd get an NRL standard squad from without further weakening other already weak teams. 

[AB90]

9 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

In an ideal world we'd get rid of the tiny grounds, but also stop using the huge stadia for club games attracting barely 10k. The new stadium in west Sydney looks great on TV and has an atmosphere with reasonable sized NRL crowds. I personally hate watching games at ANZ or other stadia where there are a few k spectators crammed into small sections of the ground.  Horrible look.

I do wonder where an extra teams worth of players would come from. The gap between top and bottom is pretty big and whilst a new team would sign a couple of big names, I'm not sure where they'd get an NRL standard squad from without further weakening other already weak teams. 

The players are there but they just need to stop them leaving to go to SL.

Look at the NRL developed halves playing in SL at the moment - Blake Austin, Jackson Hastings, Aiden Sezer, Gareth Widdop, James Maloney. All 5 of them are good, starting qaulity halves.

 

[Eddie]

9 hours ago, BrisbaneRhino said:

In an ideal world we'd get rid of the tiny grounds, but also stop using the huge stadia for club games attracting barely 10k. The new stadium in west Sydney looks great on TV and has an atmosphere with reasonable sized NRL crowds. I personally hate watching games at ANZ or other stadia where there are a few k spectators crammed into small sections of the ground.  Horrible look.

I do wonder where an extra teams worth of players would come from. The gap between top and bottom is pretty big and whilst a new team would sign a couple of big names, I'm not sure where they'd get an NRL standard squad from without further weakening other already weak teams. 

Q Cup, NSW Cup, SL, Union - loads of options. Ok it would take a while but not too difficult to get to the standard of the bottom teams if the money is available. 

[Cumbrian Mackem]

3 hours ago, Eddie said:

Q Cup, NSW Cup, SL, Union - loads of options. Ok it would take a while but not too difficult to get to the standard of the bottom teams if the money is available. 

Add NZ&fiji schoolboy union players to that list in the short term while the likes of PNG, Fiji silktails and possibly countries like the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu and New Caledonian in the long term.

[unapologetic pedant]

2 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

Add NZ&fiji schoolboy union players to that list in the short term while the likes of PNG, Fiji silktails and possibly countries like the Solomon Islands, Vanuatu and New Caledonian in the long term.

Why add "NZ and Fiji schoolboy Union players"? Unless you want to encourage people to play Union. I`d rather encourage people to play League. Short-term all too easily shades into long-term.

[Cumbrian Mackem]

1 hour ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Why add "NZ and Fiji schoolboy Union players"? Unless you want to encourage people to play Union. I`d rather encourage people to play League. Short-term all too easily shades into long-term.

Don’t follow marra??

NRL clubs already target NZ Union schoolboys and to a lesser degree Fijian union schoolboys to play in their junior grade sides.

[unapologetic pedant]

4 hours ago, Cumbrian Mackem said:

NRL clubs already target NZ Union schoolboys and to a lesser degree Fijian union schoolboys to play in their junior grade sides.

Indeed they do, far too much. In terms of what they have respect for, they`re sending all the wrong messages when they bypass NZ junior League in favour of schoolboy Union.

[rlno1]

On 04/02/2021 at 21:59, The Great Dane said:

Don't confuse poor decision making in the football department, particularly poor cap management, for financial instability.

The reality is that Manly are totally reliant on their NRL grant and the Penn family for their existence, and Scott Penn wants out.

Meanwhile both Wests and Canterbury have successful well run leagues clubs, and have the resources to follow the more successful clubs lead by investing heavily in other revenue steams.

The reality is clubs can turn things around with good management, just as South Sydney have and Western Suburbs have from clubs that were down on their knees.

[rlno1]

On 05/02/2021 at 12:17, BrisbaneRhino said:

In an ideal world we'd get rid of the tiny grounds, but also stop using the huge stadia for club games attracting barely 10k. The new stadium in west Sydney looks great on TV and has an atmosphere with reasonable sized NRL crowds. I personally hate watching games at ANZ or other stadia where there are a few k spectators crammed into small sections of the ground.  Horrible look.

I do wonder where an extra teams worth of players would come from. The gap between top and bottom is pretty big and whilst a new team would sign a couple of big names, I'm not sure where they'd get an NRL standard squad from without further weakening other already weak teams. 

 

 

On 04/02/2021 at 22:26, The Great Dane said:

You're right about the Roosters, they slipped my mind. However the rest have transcended their suburban boarders to varying degrees and now have mass appeal across the city (and the eastern seaboard of the country) in a way Manly has simply failed to achieve.

It's a fact that there're significantly more Souths fans in Western Sydney than Eastern Sydney these days, and that's been the case for more than a decade now. You see a similar thing with the Dogs and Parra as well, just on a smaller scale.

It also doesn't matter because all those clubs (with the possible exception of Cronulla) are in a position where they are at least reasonably financially stable for the time being, and don't need a huge boost of support to boost their business.

Neither have enough amenities to support a crowd over 10k, and all it would take is a handful of bad luck or bad decisions on a day with a big crowd and things could go badly #### up.

For example the southern stands at Leichardt were infested with termites for years before they were forced to rip one of them down. Apparently, despite being the same wooden design and only being meters away the other one is just fine though...

Norths, with the help of the NSWRL, have blocked Manly's attempts to grow outside of the Northern Beaches by claiming "they're trying to steal our juniors" multiple times. Of course Manly had no interest in Norths juniors and were just doing basic marketing that all sports clubs do, and the NRL should have put Norths and NSWRL in it's place, but they didn't and it is what it is.

As to a merger, I don't see what the point would be at this point, especially after how things went last time.

Sydney clubs have ALWAYS transcended their boarders that's why it became the league that grew into the national competition.

Clubs like Parra, Manly, Souths, Saints, Balmain, Canterbury and the Roosters have always had big followings outside their Sydney base.

[Cumbrian Mackem]

5 hours ago, unapologetic pedant said:

Indeed they do, far too much. In terms of what they have respect for, they`re sending all the wrong messages when they bypass NZ junior League in favour of schoolboy Union.

Like it or not RU has a bigger talent pool. Why not raid it?

[The Rocket]

On 04/02/2021 at 22:26, The Great Dane said:

However the rest have transcended their suburban boarders to varying degrees and now have mass appeal across the city (and the eastern seaboard of the country) in a way Manly has simply failed to achieve.

Manly are an interesting case, Ever since Roy Masters, when he was the coach of Western Suburbs, labelled them the `silvertails` as opposed to the Magpies `fibros` there has been this image of Manly as this rich club from this affluent area that could afford to steal everyones best players. The truth was where Manly is based, so far north with the shocking public transport, I still don`t think they have a train line up there, it wasn`t that wealthy at all, very working class, a lot of cheap housing. I dare say it`s proximity to the beaches and the improved roads and bus transport, the expansion of the North Sydney CBD there has become a lot of very expensive housing up there now.

However Manly`s success on the field and the above factors have led to this enduring image. Not the sort of image that endears you to your average Joe Blow from the western suburbs or country NSW or Queensland. Maybe a bit of a following on the central coast.

Souths are a completely different kettle of fish, poor or lower income families who hang on to their support for Souths like the yokels in America with their `guns and religion`, passing it down through the generations, taking it where ever they pull up next.

I saw a sign held by a fan at a televised Manly game one year at Brooky that said " WE HATE YOU TOO".

With regards wealthy Leagues Clubs, it strikes me that Leagues Clubs seem to have become `lenders of last resort` to the Football department at many clubs.

It strikes me odd, given that I think most Leagues Clubs where actually set up originally to support the League team. Most seem to have taken on a life of there own now as entertainment juggernauts and the football department have become just a minor part of their operations. Certainly not to be counted on to tip in millions year after year. Panthers may be the exception.

 

[unapologetic pedant]

3 hours ago, The Rocket said:

It strikes me odd, given that I think most Leagues Clubs where actually set up originally to support the League team. Most seem to have taken on a life of there own now as entertainment juggernauts and the football department have become just a minor part of their operations. Certainly not to be counted on to tip in millions year after year. Panthers may be the exception.

 

There`s the same apparent detachment between Leagues club and football club in non-NRL enterprises like Mounties, Cabramatta Two Blues, Wenty Magpies, St. Mary`s.

Reading through this page, it appears all Sydney RL clubs have demographic challenges. Their fanbases have either contracted, dispersed, or were never big enough in the first place. Everybody is hemmed in by everybody else. There are over 5 million Sydneysiders. Where are they all hiding?

[Whippet13]

At least a couple of NRL chief executives seem to have an eye on how much a 17th club will cost them in the short term, shows it's not just Super League clubs that put themselves first and say sod the benefits to the game:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/club-bosses-want-expansion-team-to-pay-multimillion-dollar-fee-to-enter-nrl-20210206-p57060.html

[The Rocket]

10 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

At least a couple of NRL chief executives seem to have an eye on how much a 17th club will cost them in the short term, shows it's not just Super League clubs that put themselves first and say sod the benefits to the game:

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/nrl/club-bosses-want-expansion-team-to-pay-multimillion-dollar-fee-to-enter-nrl-20210206-p57060.html

Yes it was only a week or so ago that they changed the rules so that Club administrators could leave their position and go straight onto the ARL Commission, whereas previously there was a three year wait.

This announcement that you have highlighted indicates exactly the sort of decisions you get when you let club bosses anywhere the decision making affecting the game as a whole. They will always have club loyalties in the back of their mind.

Despite Foxtel having a clause in their deal that allows for renegotiation mid-contract if a new team joins the competition and Nines deal up for renegotiation around the time of the new team  being slated to join the comp, both of which you would think should lead to a larger broadcast deal to cover the cost of the new team, no they the club bosses have indicated they want more.

 I just don`t think this is the way to encourage bids in the future from the more outlying areas.

I`ve no doubt V`landy`s is tough, but you have to wonder whether he knows the club bosses can still make or break him.