Saint Toppy Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 18 hours ago, Dunbar said: Surely inclusivity means you should welcome those that you do not align with. But inclusiveness works both ways. Folau has publicly stated time & again that he has not intention of accepting people who have a different sexual orientation to him. So why should a sport who has a very clear set of guidelines, policies and objectives regarding discrimination accept a person with such views ? St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 23 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said: But inclusiveness works both ways. Folau has publicly stated time & again that he has not intention of accepting people who have a different sexual orientation to him. So why should a sport who has a very clear set of guidelines, policies and objectives regarding discrimination accept a person with such views ? That's an interesting point. Can you cite the occasions on which Folau has made these statements "time and again" and what he means by not "accepting people who have a different sexual orientation to him"? The only time I'm aware of when Folau came into contact with gay people was when he was the poster boy for the Bingham Cup, which is a competition for gay rugby teams, and he was photographed with his arm around one of the participants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: That's an interesting point. Can you cite the occasions on which Folau has made these statements "time and again" and what he means by not "accepting people who have a different sexual orientation to him"? The only time I'm aware of when Folau came into contact with gay people was when he was the poster boy for the Bingham Cup, which is a competition for gay rugby teams, and he was photographed with his arm around one of the participants. You think he's never ever come into contact with a gay person other than this? I think that would be a miracle. Also, to stay on point, having got all huffy that the homosexualists would need to repent in order to go to heaven (or whatevs) because they are disgusting and wrong he then gave a sermon wondering, you know just asking the question, whether the bushfires in Australia happening so soon after same sex marriage could be a coincidence. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 This is a very complicated area. I do not think that Folau has demonstrated specific homophonic language and his posts on social media were both an expression of his deeply held beliefs (shared by many) and aimed at the 'sin' of homosexuality and not the 'sinner'. He would say, as all Christians do, that he is trying to save the sinner from their eternal fate and that he in fact loves them. But... it is this belief that homosexuality is wrong - held my almost all religions - that fuels the fire of homophobia and bigotry and provides a platform for those that are acting through hate. Folau is simply one clumsy (polite term) voice out of many many people who believe what he does and so the very definition of inclusivity means we welcome them into our sport. I would just hope that the river of enlightenment keeps flowing in the right direction. Until such time we put up with the stone age beliefs of Folau. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobus Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 My belief is that he won't be back. But that we might have a saga until that proves definitively to be the case. Fancy a game of touch in Cambs or Lincs? DM me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Dunbar said: Until such time we put up with the stone age beliefs of Folau. I sort of get what you're saying but, no, 'we' do not put up with them. We, or some of us, imperfectly and mostly from the comfort of a sofa, challenge them. Because, ultimately, there really is no equivalence between someone who is gay saying live and let live and someone who is saying homosexuality is an abomination. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, gingerjon said: I sort of get what you're saying but, no, 'we' do not put up with them. We, or some of us, imperfectly and mostly from the comfort of a sofa, challenge them. Because, ultimately, there really is no equivalence between someone who is gay saying live and let live and someone who is saying homosexuality is an abomination. But surely we do that through education, dialogue and reason. Not by banning them from playing rugby? "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo5 Posted February 4, 2021 Author Share Posted February 4, 2021 13 minutes ago, jacobus said: My belief is that he won't be back. But that we might have a saga until that proves definitively to be the case. If your signing Whare from Penrith he won’t be that much of a loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dunbar said: But surely we do that through education, dialogue and reason. Not by banning them from playing rugby? He clearly hasn't been banned from playing rugby. He could turn out again for Catalans next season if he wanted to. But people rarely change without some element of discomfort first. The marketplace of ideas is a nonsense. Without some proper challenge to his cosy fundamentalism our lad will not even begin to question any of his dogmatic beliefs. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, gingerjon said: He clearly hasn't been banned from playing rugby. He could turn out again for Catalans next season if he wanted to. So what course of action are you advocating beyond chastising him on here? 1 minute ago, gingerjon said: But people rarely change without some element of discomfort first. The marketplace of ideas is a nonsense. Without some proper challenge to his cosy fundamentalism our lad will not even begin to question any of his dogmatic beliefs. Folau will never change his beliefs. Those who may though are the youngest generation who, being brought up in tolerant and civil societies, cast off these types of beliefs. With a small exception (i.e. born again) Religious beliefs and the dogma they instill only survive because they get their teeth into the young before they have a chance to form their own world view. This is changed, as I say, through education and the opportunity for everyone to think for themselves. You make no progress by simply saying your world view is wrong. They will dig into their position. Give everyone the chance to think for themselves and progress will be made. Provide universal access to education for young people, and girls in particular, and the world will be a better place. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Dunbar said: Provide universal access to education for young people, and girls in particular, and the world will be a better place. I'm not sure I agree with you on the rest - and it's too much of a digression really down the line of politics (but happy to continue it there later) - but very much on this. It's basically proven that if you want a society to improve by becoming more equal, and also healthier, then you focus education on girls. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I think we need to be clear on what Folau is being criticised for. People can hold all sorts of views, and do. That's their prerogative, their right, and I have little interest in debating with people who believe in things like Hell - that's their business. Live and let live. Where it becomes an issue is when people want to go public on their views without any consequences. That cannot be the case. He is free to say what he wants, but there is always a risk of consequences, including: - public criticism - he has had plenty, and that is what is happening here (some people here are critical of this happening) - commercial/employment repercussions - companies will make their decisions whether they want to be associated with these views, whether they want to employ someone with these views - legal repercussions - if these things are classified as hate speech then there can be legal repercussions We need to be careful with the balance of arguing that people are allowed to hold their views but not wanting consequences. That can't really work - otherwise we go down the slippy slope of racism, homophobia, sexism etc. going unchallenged. Religion doesn't circumnavigate any of this. I think people who argue vociferously for Folau to be able to publicly spout these views without consequence need to be careful what they wish for.That isn't aimed specifically at anyone here by the way, I'm enjoying reading some of the opposing views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Stottle Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 19 hours ago, Dunedan said: You're mileage may vary. That's a call for you to make. Given the context of who we are talking about, I would have thought it was obvious what anyone's objection might be though. I believe it was 8 different catagories that displeased Folau, but only one of the subjects recieved condemnation which the press had a field day, all the others could be construed as equally as bad, but as Eddie intimates sticks and stones and mindsets should also be a consideration of the individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fighting irish Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, gingerjon said: You think he's never ever come into contact with a gay person other than this? I think that would be a miracle. Also, to stay on point, having got all huffy that the homosexualists would need to repent in order to go to heaven (or whatevs) because they are disgusting and wrong he then gave a sermon wondering, you know just asking the question, whether the bushfires in Australia happening so soon after same sex marriage could be a coincidence. I'm sorry Ginge' but I just can't see the point you are making? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damien Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 That was a really good listen. It was interesting to hear him talk as a journalist about the battle Rugby League has with the media and the people who are the gatekeepers to that media. It was also interesting to hear what he said about RU mattering to more of the powerful people in this country, the class system and how it would/does get a much fairer hearing than RL if it ever needed/needs it e.g if it was ever in trouble. I think things like the recent Covid grants are evidence of that. When heartland Rugby League fans say all this it is easy to dismiss it as a chip on the shoulder. When a middle class, well spoken journalist from West London says it it does show that it isn't just that and there is an awful lot in those complaints. He is bang on with what he says about the international events being in London and them transcending class and geographical barriers and this is what many on here have been saying on here for years. Similarly with the World Cup. Internationals and England matches are what can grow RL in this country and this is what RL needs to be pushing far more than it does now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 16 minutes ago, fighting irish said: I'm sorry Ginge' but I just can't see the point you are making? Two points: One: Martyn seems to believe that Folau has had precisely one encounter with gays in his life. I find that unlikely. He will have met dozens, it's just doubtful he'd have noticed because, well why would you. Second: Someone who says homosexuality is fine and we should all live and let live is not the same as someone who says homosexuality is abhorrent and gays will burn in hell. Not all opinions balance out. Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, gingerjon said: You think he's never ever come into contact with a gay person other than this? I think that would be a miracle. Also, to stay on point, having got all huffy that the homosexualists would need to repent in order to go to heaven (or whatevs) because they are disgusting and wrong he then gave a sermon wondering, you know just asking the question, whether the bushfires in Australia happening so soon after same sex marriage could be a coincidence. Like all of us he will have come into contact with gay people regularly, I don't doubt it. But since I'm not his stalker, the only time I'm aware of when he met a gay person and was photographed doing so was in connection with the Bingham Cup, which didn't suggest to me that he was anti-gay at a human level, despite his religious views. And if we were to ban everyone who had ever made a foolish statement or asked a daft question, then there would be almost no one playing the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 32 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I believe it was 8 different catagories that displeased Folau, but only one of the subjects recieved condemnation which the press had a field day, all the others could be construed as equally as bad, but as Eddie intimates sticks and stones and mindsets should also be a consideration of the individual. There is quite an important difference between homosexual and the other 7 things on that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunbar Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said: I believe it was 8 different catagories that displeased Folau, but only one of the subjects recieved condemnation which the press had a field day, all the others could be construed as equally as bad, but as Eddie intimates sticks and stones and mindsets should also be a consideration of the individual. I think the reason for this Harry is that 7 of the 8 categories are behaviours while an individuals sexuality is not a choice or a behaviour it is a characteristic. In other words Folau was saying gay people are condemned to an eternity to hell for who they are rather than how they behave. And yes, I do understand that Christians and other religious groups will say it is the act of homosexuality that is a sin and not homosexuality as a characteristic but that really doesn't wash in a modern world view. "The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby. "If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Dave T said: There is quite an important difference between homosexual and the other 7 things on that list. What were the 8 things? I can remember drinking and fornication as two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Toppy Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said: That's an interesting point. Can you cite the occasions on which Folau has made these statements "time and again" and what he means by not "accepting people who have a different sexual orientation to him"? The only time I'm aware of when Folau came into contact with gay people was when he was the poster boy for the Bingham Cup, which is a competition for gay rugby teams, and he was photographed with his arm around one of the participants. He made multiple 'anti-gay' remarks on social media which led to his sacking by the ARFU and then followed that up with further social media remarks claiming that the bushfires we 'gods wrath' for the Australian government passing laws on same sex marriage. St.Helens - The Home of record breaking Rugby Champions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave T Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Eddie said: What were the 8 things? I can remember drinking and fornication as two of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gingerjon Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said: Like all of us he will have come into contact with gay people regularly, I don't doubt it. But since I'm not his stalker, the only time I'm aware of when he met a gay person and was photographed doing so was in connection with the Bingham Cup, which didn't suggest to me that he was anti-gay at a human level, despite his religious views. And if we were to ban everyone who had ever made a foolish statement or asked a daft question, then there would be almost no one playing the game. "Do you think it's a coincidence that we've got bushfires not longer after we allowed gays to marry?" is not really on a par with, "Do Mars bars really come from space?" Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martyn Sadler Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, Dave T said: I think people who argue vociferously for Folau to be able to publicly spout these views without consequence need to be careful what they wish for.That isn't aimed specifically at anyone here by the way, I'm enjoying reading some of the opposing views. Is anyone saying that? If Folau breaches the terms of his contract by the content of his social media posts, then he will pay the price. It's as simple as that and I can't imagine that anyone disputes it. But the issue is whether he should be banned from playing Rugby League for making an Instagram post prior to returning to Rugby League that in itself was merely an expression of his beliefs, and that didn't apparently breach his contract at that time, but which was picked up and magnified endlessly by people like Peter Fitzsimons of the SMH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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